Guidance Please

[SwordGuyJoe]

All,

I am looking to restore my Kanehiro and mount it. It needs a light polish and I have been given a few names on who to contact - Fred Lohman or Chris Osborne - but these names came up for non-gendaito polish of my Mantetsu. I don't want to assume that this is showato nor do I want to assume gendaito. So here are my questions:

 

1. How can I tell? Can someone help me? Here is a link to pictures of the sword with closeups:

http://web.me.com/joseph.kraninger/Joes ... ehiro.html

 

2. If Gendaito, who can I contact? If Showato, does anyone have any other contacts?

 

3. The shirasaya is original and has seen better days - so I would like to mount it. Either shirasaya or koshirae. For Koshirae, I would need a habaki. I would like to get this done all at the same place (Polish and Mounting). Any suggestions on who to send it to for both Gendaito and Showato?

 

4. Finally - what can I expect to spend on all of this?

 

I think to really understand the cost, I would need to know if this is gendaito or showato, since my understanding is that the gendaito polish will be more expensive, but I may be wrong. Thanks in advance for the assistance.

[Amon]

Hi Joe!

 

Chris is a member of Nmb so try to pm him or contact him at his website

swordpolish.net

If he got the time I'm sure he can help you out what ever your sword turns out to be.

 

Best regards,

[nagamaki - Franco]

Greetings,

 

Based on the images this looks like a machine made piece of steel, a showato (showa military acceptance stamp), that is not water quenched, there is "no activity", "no nioi", "no nie".

[pcfarrar]

I agree with Franco its almost certainly a Showato. Polishing it would be a waste of money, IMHO its not so bad in the current state anyway.

Instead of remounting/polishing better to spend that money on buying a decent gendaito.

 

Or buy something like this with the hard work already done:

 

http://www.nihonto.us/UDA%20IAI%20KATANA.htm

[SwordGuyJoe]

What would make you think "machine made" rather than handmade, oil quenched?

[nagamaki - Franco]

Greetings,

 

What would make you think "machine made" rather than handmade, oil quenched?

 

recognition - An awareness that something perceived has been perceived before.

 

Where is the evidence that this steel is hand forged, and from tamahagane no less?

[SwordGuyJoe]

Answering a question with a question? I have only been collecting for a couple years and I don't ask what may be perceived as stupid questions, by people who have been collecting longer than I, to annoy or to imply I know more than they do. I ask them because I am new to this hobby and I am looking to learn. I am not implying that this is hand forged, nor did I make any mention of tamahagane used as the raw material.

 

I asked so if I see a blade, there may be telltale signs I am not aware of, and if I know of them, I will be able to make a more informed observation and think to myself, that Nagamaki really helped me out.

 

In my comparatively limited understanding, I have read of machine made blades that have had a hamon chemically induced, but that is typically suguha. This is not suguha and the hamon does not have the look of blades with chemically generated hamon - a dull uniform hamon, with little to no variation - and the time it would take to create a fake hamon of this shape would seem like a waste of time.

 

I am anxious to hear about why you think that this is machine made. When you mean machine made, are you implying that it was partially machine made or completely made by a machine, as NCO katana are?

[Stephen]

I've had a good look at the blade, hada, hamon with nioi, no doubt in my mind that this was forged ...as in folded and hammered out...not a stamped out machine blade...to me this is one of those blades that's on the fence post, I really don't know why it has a Army stamp on it. The dark hardness at the peak of the hamon puts ones mind into oil quenched I don't think it so in this case. Over my few years on nihonto I can tell you as in life there is no absolutes, each must be measured on its own merits

[nagamaki - Franco]

Greetings,

 

In looking at the images carefully again, this sword has what I perceive as "homogenized" steel, where I see no evidence of itame, mokume, masame, not even muji. Even muji is patterned to the point that it can be recognized as being hand forged, where homogenized steel is simply, well, "homogenized". And, again, I see no nie or nioi activity and have to conclude that it is not water quenched, wavy hamon or not. Now, did this sword smith take this machine made steel and work it into a sword, yes.

 

Stephen, the reason this sword has a showa stamp is that it is a showato, not a gendaito.

[drbvac]

Franco: I thought we had already discussed Showa stamps on Gendaito blades and come to the conclusion that they are on gedaito as "acceptance stamps" into military use?

[nagamaki - Franco]

Franco: I thought we had already discussed Showa stamps on Gendaito blades and come to the conclusion that they are on gedaito as "acceptance stamps" into military use?

 

Hello Dr. Barrett,

 

A showa stamp on a gendaito is not the issue here. This sword imho is a showato with a showa stamp, which is the point I'm trying to make.

[drbvac]

Franco:

 

Agreed ,

 

Just did not want to confuse the two issues and have folks think it was always the case that showata stamp=showata blade.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Showato (bearing stamp) can be hand forged and water quenched but they are no made from tamahagane

 

 

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=5432

[Brian]

I used to think that too Brian, but now I am leaning the other way after reading Clive Snclair's comments and a few others.

Lots of stories about Gendaito with stamps, but nothing I have seen proves conclusively that there are tamahagane swords with stamps. Maybe partially forged blades that are water quenched..but full Nihonto? I have my doubts. Even those that have received papers don't prove much. We have seen them err and paper swords that were borderline. I'm with Jacques and others on this.

 

Oh..and when we say machine made, we don't necessarily mean no quenching or a solid block of steel. It could mean some forging and oil quenching..we still call those machine made for convenience.

 

Brian

[Guest nickn]

nanban tetsu is not tamahagane but yasatsugu shimosaka school swords are true nihonto???

[Stephen]

there is no absolutes, each must be measured on its own merits

[Bruno]

Hi all,

 

I was reading this old and interesting topic and a question came to my mind.

 

Suguha hamon are commonly found on ww2 showato, but is it possible to determine when there are fake or not? I mean it is not easy to determine it when the blade in not in a fresh polish(often the case) and when you buy it online.

 

I own a showato with suguha hamon and I do like to know, if possible, if the hamon is fake.

 

Anybody has an opinion about that?

 

Thank you

[John A Stuart]

Hi Bruno, In the case of Showato and shingunto in general, fake is not the word you mean to use, I think. They have a differentially hardened edge and exhibit a hamon. The only difference can be found in whether they are water quenched or oil quenched. Oil quenched hamon shows a soft nioi guchi, if at all, but, it isn't fake. Conversely the machine made hamon found on Police Sabres for example is fake. Close examination is the only way to distinguish whether a sword is oil or water quenched. One can assume oil quenching on certain swords by association however. John

[David Flynn]

As John said, whether oil or water quenched, these are "Real." Fake, I would class as etched, eg. Parade Sabre.

Intersting, in Japan, dealers have a different way of Classing modern swords. Showato, are classed as hand made, pre 1946. Gendai, are classed as post war and Gunto, are classed as "Showa," "Seki," stamped etc.

[Bazza]

As John said, whether oil or water quenched, these are "Real." Fake, I would class as etched, eg. Parade Sabre.

Intersting, in Japan, dealers have a different way of Classing modern swords. Showato, are classed as hand made, pre 1946. Gendai, are classed as post war and Gunto, are classed as "Showa," "Seki," stamped etc.

Does it depend whether one is buying or selling???!!!

 

BaZZa.

[David Flynn]

Buying from dealers

[george trotter]

I'd go along with John here Bruno. A close look at gunto mounted blades will show some with "weak" looking very fine nioi line (nioi guchi) hamon which indicates oil temper (usually no hada at all) and then other blades which tend to show nioi guchi hamon, but with some larger nie, or nie in valleys and peaks (often with some areas of hada, usually masame)...these we tend to call showato (handmade, water tempered, but probably modern, western steel). Gendai blades have obvious nie, hamon and tend to be accepted as tamahagane if the maker, group etc are known to work in traditional ways...the hamon and workmanship "stand out" with nie and hada. The navy dirks, and military sabres we see have chrome blades, etched or abraded hamons and are termed fake of imitation hamon guntos.

 

Two things I would add...as it is so hard to tell the difference between gendaito and showato forging features (ie. western or tamahagane steel) the seki and sho stamps became required by law around 1940 and were intended to identify NON tamahagane blades...they are not "military acceptance" stamps as they were put on by the maker, not the army or navy.

Another sign (not ALWAYS of course) is the yokote line of showato and gunto. These tend to be cosmetic line, rather than actual line..."rounded" rather than a distinct "line" where the angle of the ji changes to become the curve of the kissaki ji. Good gunto mounted gendaito tend to have better polish and tend to have the distinct change of angle at the yokote line. (just an observation).

Hope this helps,

George.

[drbvac]

Two things I would add...as it is so hard to tell the difference between gendaito and showato forging features (ie. western or tamahagane steel) the seki and sho stamps became required by law around 1940 and were intended to identify NON tamahagane blades...they are not "military acceptance" stamps as they were put on by the maker, not the army or navy.

 

George:

 

I will jump in here and try and get some guidance for myself. This is my Kanefusa which I have thought was gendaito, in fact it is non-gunto mounts and it does have the showa stamp. If I read the post correctly you take this to be western steel, forged in the historic method with water quenching. There is no doubt in my mind that this is so with the hamon etc. but I would bet this was forged in the early 30's.and have no idea why the smith would stamp it as I don't believe it was in gunto mounts. Any thoughts as I appreciate your wealth of knowledge and experience and if the type of steel is the only difference in this blade I can live with that as it is quite lovely.

[David Flynn]

Some "Stamped swords", are found with oil tempered blades and some which appear to be tradionaly made. However, I would dissagree with George on the point that Tamahagane made Gendai blades have a Nie hamon. Some do and some have Nioi based hamon. Both depend on the style in which they were forged. Eg Kosama Ikkansai Shigetsugu, forged mainlly in Bizen Nioi deki.

[doug e lewis]

hey all,

 

i amy be confused --- we are talking about a 20th century sword, no? then why the mention of "yasutsugu shimosaka" [i corrected what i thought was a misspell]

 

from

 

After the beginning of the Edo period, Musashi province attracted swordsmiths from all over Japan including Omi, Yamashiro and Mino. Of the schools working in this area in Shinto times, the Echizen Yasatsugu's group was especially well known. The first-generation Yasutsugu received the character YASU in his name from Tokugawa Ieyasu and became the kaji to the shogun, forging high-quality swords (including utushimono of soshu blades by Masamune and Sadamune).

 

so what did i miss? is this sword supposed to be by a smith in the family/tradition.

 

yours in blissfull ignorance

 

doug e

[John A Stuart]

There was a period where foreign objects were coveted, mainly Spanish, Portugese and Dutch. Yasutsugu used nambantetsu to forge some of his swords (at the bidding of the Shogun, it is said) and inscribed them as such. They were the 'haute couture' of the day. There is some dispute as to the source of the steel, but, needless to say, one can't be sure of the actual % of nambantetsu in his blades. John

[george trotter]

Hi all,

As we know, the "rules" of gendai, showa, gun to don't ALWAYS apply ALL the time...but they are general. Some interesting points were raised here. Again, these are my observations...

Brian...as a rule, if it has the Sho or Seki stamp, it isn't gendaito...at first glance at your pics (my only point of judgement), I would assess the Kanefusa as probably Showato made 1940 or after as it has the regulation stamp, which had to be put on all swords of "non-traditional" make to differentiate them from "traditional" swords regardless of whether for military or civilian use (because it was so hard to tell the difference), . Hamon/hada uncertain from pics...I would assess the polish in the first pic as "recent" (repolished in ha-dori?), which to me always hides the original qualities that show in original WWII sashikomi polish (this is my opinion). pic 2 of the ha-machi area seems WWII period polish and to show what is termed nioi guchi hamon...so possibly oil tempered. I think we need to see nie to say water tempered...but as David Flynn says...some water tempered blades show just nioi hamon on occasion...so I can't be too helpful here...sorry. The civilian mounts are quite common, even in sho stamped swords....probably made and mounted in civilian mounts c.1940 as many people bought swords like this. Horimono is quite rare though. There is one similar carved sho stamped sword around here but I forget by whom...also a nice sword.

 

Doug...the comment about Yasutsugu using nambantetsu (western steel) I think refers to the argument about Showato not being nihonto because they used western steel...that is, if Yasutsucgu of Musashi and Echizen lines used nambantetsu for 11 generations (or something) from Kambun down to almost Meiji and they are nihonto...well...how can that be if showa blades using western steel, but otherwise traditional, are not nihonto?...I think this might be the reference meant.

Regards, George.

[george trotter]

Me again...Bruno asked about suguba on Showato and he wanted to know how to tell fake hamon...I have seen a lot of suguba on Type 3 mounted Showato, usually with "gi" stamp, and many seemed to be "weak" looking nioi-guchi hamon...so I am inclined to think oil tempered...I have also seen suguba on a fair number of kaigunto, usually the unsigned type with anchor stamp...as these seem to be "anti-rust" steel with (I think) a high % of chromium or some such in them, the hamon on them seems to be "weak", not even nioi-guchi...even more like a fake hamon, but I don't know how done. I suppose I am saying again...I always look for nie to be sure the hamon is water tempered (but there may be exceptions to water/nie?).

As for Brian's hamon...although I said it looks like nioi-guchi in the close-up (pic 2), the overall (pic 1) of the hamon seems to show a robust choji, of hako or uma-no-ha shape, so that suggests strength and tempering...I have a "Showato" (Ando Kanemoto (slough p.50) which has hada and nie and a clear, defined hamon which is definitely "hard", which leads me to think water-tempered and traditionally made of western steel, but the blade shape, and the nakago and mei "finish" are typical of the WWII Showato/gunto production type...but NO Sho/Seki stamp and the mei says "kore o kitau" (forged this)....by the "rules of stamps" and blade kitae this should be "traditionally made", but by the "rule of observing Showato/gunto style characteristics" it should be Showato/gunto. I suppose we have to come back to "each blade being judged on its merits and general rules are ok, but exceptions always exist. It is a difficult area without physically testing each blade.

Regards,

George.