Sword Saya Hidden Chamber Question

[hddennis]

Just acquired a Yamagane Handachi Koshirae  and while cleaning it the ishizuki came off the saya and revealed a chamber nearly 18mm wide and 83mm deep. Any idea what this is for?

[noneed2hate]

Perhaps an effort to keep the saya more balanced assuming it was used with a shorter sword?

 

[David Flynn]

Generally used as a pocket for coins.

[John C]

Howard:

I believe David is on the right track. Gold coins were carried in the saya at times, particularly on long journeys. 

John C.

[Bugyotsuji]

Remember the small gold and silver ‘coins’ were mostly square or rectangular; they were exchanged by weight for round ‘zeni’ cash coins for buying everyday things.

 

PS Nice find, Howard! 

[Jacques D.]

6 hours ago, David Flynn said:

Generally used as a pocket for coins.

Which, given their weight, would quickly end up on the ground.

[Dave R]

Is it an actual separate chamber or a continuation of the main cavity?

 

[hddennis]

4 hours ago, Dave R said:

Is it an actual separate chamber or a continuation of the main cavity?

 

Separate chamber that has about a 1/8 inch of an opening into the drainage pocket of the sword cavity.

[Baka Gaijin]

Good evening,

 

Just a random thought 

The shape of the opening does not look as though it was created at the time of manufacture as a Saya - Shi presumably would have cut more precisely.

[Jacques D.]

Malcom,

 

You are right, we don't know the history of this saya

[hddennis]

2 hours ago, Baka Gaijin said:

Good evening,

 

Just a random thought 

The shape of the opening does not look as though it was created at the time of manufacture as a Saya - Shi presumably would have cut more precisely.

 

I had the same thought but I also thought that doesn't mean a later less talented owner couldn't have made the modification himself for the same purpose?

[hddennis]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

Malcom,

 

You are right, we don't know the history of this saya

Since these swords were last carried over a century and a half ago does ANYONE actually know the history of their sword?

[Brian]

Whatever it is, I doubt it was for carrying money.
Just the weight and the bouncing from walking around, and gravity, would have popped that off in no time. Also, it is a permanently fitted mounting, not removable.
Maybe he got something stuck at the bottom of the saya, and this is how they got it out. Could be anything, it's going to be 100% speculation.

[Dave R]

 My thought was that this is a shortened saya, and the cavity is part of the original void.

[IBot]

Scabbards fitted with storage for coins are not too uncommon but normally take the form of a kind of drawer of horn that slides into the side of the saya from the koi guchi.end. I have what looks like a tanto, but instead of a blade has a drawer of incredibly thin wood for coins. There is a similar one illustrated in the book on 'Edo period tanto'. One other reason for odd cavities is for weights of lead to correct the balance of a sword, although they are not surprisingly fitted into the upper part of the tsuka when used. When cutting out the wood of a saya it is usual to add a cavity at the bottom end to collect excess oil or to take any foreign matter that might accidently get inside. This however is added as an extension to the oil cavity so it isn't that. I suspect it had been added rather more recently as it is a bit oddly shaped. If it was original to the saya it would be bettershapped.

 

Ian Bottomley 

[Todashi]

My understanding is that this kind of hidden chamber on saya were used for hiding small documents.

 

I've seen a few of them and own one very similar. This feature is something found on supposed 'ninja-to.' You can kinda say there are two kinds of ninja weapon or tool out there - those it's suggested were historically used by ninja, and then anything else that's a bit ninja-esque which gets labelled with the word ninja even if there's no actual historical connection at all.  

 

I'm not suggesting this particular set of mounts were owned by a real ninja, but rather someone at some point wanted to be able to hide a small folded piece of paper in a place where it wouldn't be easily found. An interesting find regardless. Congratulations. 

[rematron]

I think whoever made that cavity just wanted some future Nihonto discussion group to practice their imaginations. And since we’re speculating, I’m going with shinobi stuff cuz ninja are fun.  Either that or a sewing kit. 

[uwe]

Maybe someone tried to create a “shirikane-saya” 🤔

(Not for carrying coins, in this case).

[lonely panet]

i see no signs of age, im suspect of this.

 

look at the shadow created bu the fitting, them look at the clean wood. imho its a knock up

[hddennis]

11 hours ago, lonely panet said:

i see no signs of age, im suspect of this.

 

look at the shadow created bu the fitting, them look at the clean wood. imho its a knock up

What is a knock up?

[lonely panet]

Well if you have a old koshirae,  and you might want to make it look more attractive to sell to westerners.

 

one could make a compartment in a unassuming area, simply by cutting a hole into it?

 

personally i think its a stupid place to hide something,  if the fitting fell off while walking you wouldnt notice instantly.

 

just my opinion

[hddennis]

To be perfectly honest I'm insulted by your insinuation. I'm not selling this I just bought it. The discovery of this pocket was entirely accidental  while I was trying to clean my new purchase. The seller never mentioned it's presence and I doubt if he even knew it was there. 

That's my opinion. 

[rematron]

Pretty sure Hamfish was speculating that some owner before the person you bought it from had done this and was speaking hypothetically not accusingly. 
 

I think ‘knock up’ in this context means something that was done after the fact. 

 

[John C]

Howard:

I agree with Jeremy. Hamfish was merely stating the hole may have been put there some time ago to appeal to westerners. Remember there was a large trade in swords to western tourists when Japan opened to the west in the 19th century.

John C.