Did NBTHK get this wrong?

[John C]

Hello:

These questions involve not only the fallibility of the NBTHK, but also relatedly, the lack of information surrounding Fujiwara Nobuyoshi.

I know Nobuyoshi has been discussed here before, however this discussion takes a slightly different path. I have a signed Yamashiro (no) Kuni Ju Fujiwara Nobuyoshi katana in shirasaya. The problems are: 1) the signature on the blade looks different than 7 other reference samples I could find and 2) there does not seem to be any official source showing any of the Nobuyoshi generations signed this way.

Below are just two examples of other papered signatures along with my signature (with gray background) and the origami. Specifically, the Kuni character (using rounded vertical strokes) and wara character (vertical stroke not in the right place) are very different than the reference samples. And I would add, all seven of the reference samples were papered and very similar to each other. 

Question 1: Why would NBTHK approve a signature that looks this different?

 

Relatedly, I can find no reference to any of the Nobuyoshi generations signing this way. I have checked Sesko's "Index of sword smiths" as well "Nihon shinto-shi." Connoisseur's makes no reference to Nobuyoshi and both Nihonto Craft and Nihonto Club show a variety of signatures, but not this version. The closest is Yamashiro Kuni Junin Fujiwara Nobuyoshi with the added "nin" character. 

Question 2: Does anyone have an official reference showing any of the Nobuyoshi generations signed this exact way? I do not have access to any of the Hawley or Dawson books.

I thank in advance those of you who would provide answers or comments. If I am way off for some reason, I welcome that information as well. It's all learning!

John C.

[Franco D]

1 hour ago, John C said:

Question 1: Why would NBTHK approve a signature that looks this different?

 

Hello,

 

To begin with the NBTHK will have available more resources than we are likely to come up with. Years ago I had a signed katana that did not match any of the 12 published signatures available to myself and to friends with very extensive libraries. Yet, after being sold to another friend, it passed both the NTHK shinsa before being polished and the NBTHK shinsa after being polished with flying colors. It should be stated that that sword matched the textbook descriptions to a 'T.'  Which once again affirms the notion that the sword confirms the mei and not the other way around. 

 

Regards,

[Jussi Ekholm]

I am not sure if I understand the question correctly. What do you think is wrong in the NBTHK authenticated signature?

 

Here are few more references with the signature 山城国住藤原信吉

 

https://www.seiyudo.com/wa-051112.htm

https://www.juwelier-strebel.de/asienkunst/Japan/635-katana

https://www.aoijapan.net/wakizashi-yamashiro-koku-jyu-fujiwara-nobuyoshi/

https://www.aoijapan.net/wakizashi-yamashiro-koku-ju-fujiwara-nobuyoshi-tsukuruno/

https://www.aoijapan.net/wakizashi-yamashiro-kuni-jyu-fujihara-nobuyoshi/

 

[John C]

Thank you Franco. 

Jussi: Those are the other references I have of that particular mei (a total of seven of them). The "wara" character in particular, looks much different than those examples. Indeed, the "kuni" character is different as well. Therein lies the problem. All of the examples are similar except for mine. 

Additionally, I cannot find that particular wording of the mei in any referenced/published resource for Nobuyoshi. Perhaps, as noted by Franco, I just don't have access to enough sources.

 

John C.

[reinhard]

On and on again.

"I have studied this particular blade/mei very well.
Why does NBTHK not share my point of view? "

Condition of a blade is what matters most in making a judgement.
That's what makes NBTHK's papers much more valuable than NTHK's or others.

reinhard

[Rivkin]

Not being a specialist on Nobuyoshi by a very long shot...

If this was a european auction house they would provide a similar signature upon request in an established publication or database, but we deal with different standards here, so we can only guess.

Generally signed items are checked with some rigor against the published examples.

With two or more generation smiths one tends to assume somewhat greater variability as "normal", much more so if its Muromachi.

With "chujosaku" smiths one typically does not apply the same level of scrutiny as with jo-saku and above.

 

Generalities aside, what can be relied upon here is that the "tempo" of signatures is actually very similar.

Distance between kanji and between lines of kanji, the number of distinguishable strikes per line are similar, the pressure points are similar, and most importantly this "tempo" remains consistent throughout the signature. Usually with gimei there are weird pauses where the signer looks at the template in front of him and adjusts the chisel a bit for the next stroke "to get it right". If he does not do it, the whole signature will be more and more divergent from the original towards its end, if he does you see a discontinuity in the execution.

On your photograph the signature looks extremely slanted, but on the papers its much more straight, it slants just a bit, so some of this is probably a distortion due to using a wide angle lens against a curved object like nakago.

The signature is a bit condensed, and many dislike condensed signatures as a reflex, especially on wakis, where unskilled gimei artist can fear there is not enough space so overcondenses from the beginning and then has to continue like this till the end), but the examples you compare against are also condensed, so it seems to be his writing style.

 

That the individual lines point in different directions is not a definitive proof of gimei for the majority of signatures.

[John C]

Rivkin:

Thank you for that concise analysis. I suspect, then, the process of gimei is similar to that of bad check writers, who often stop to look up at the signature in order to get it right!

You are probably correct about the distortion the light causes on the characters. I hadn't considered that. I couldn't reconcile how the smith could get a character so wrong by misplacing a stroke (the vertical stroke on the "wara" character appears to start on the right rather than on the left). 

 

Thank you again,

John C.

 

[SteveM]

The vertical stroke in the 原 character you mention is a somewhat normal writing convention, particularly in handwriting/calligraphy. Its not that the smith got it wrong, its just a slight calligraphic flourish. You can click on the link below to see it written in cursive style.

 

https://ryohkei.com/kanji-gen-cursive-2-83.html

 

This is why the shinsa team looks at the entirety of the sword. Slight variations in signature are tolerated if the sword looks every bit like a Nobuyoshi sword. 

[Jussi Ekholm]

Thanks for explaining what you see John, I was bit tired when reading the OP, of course you wrote it clearly in that too now that I read it again. Kirill and Steve wrote much better replies than I could regarding on the signature and how it is judged.

 

I do think NBTHK is currently the most authorative body when it comes to Japanese swords, and to me they override old reference books. They have immensive combined knowledge gathered up. However they are not gods that never make mistakes. They do have information on hundreds of thousands of swords that I believe surpasses every other database in existence today. I would dare to guess they have total of hundreds of recorded various signatures of different signature types for this Nobuyoshi.

 

However the sheer number of items sent to each Hozon & Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa makes the evaluation process at that level very quick. They cannot spend too much time on a single item in order to process through the items at reasonable pace. Unfortunately I dont believe outsiders would be allowed to see the shinsa process at NBTHK headquarters. I remember doing some fictional calculations based on the amount of submissions etc. that I posted here on the forum too, and I do personally feel at low level NBTHK shinsa the items get processed in conveyer belt fashion and average/regular items get processed through in fast pace while some items might get more thorough check up. They just dont have the time to spend hours on each item submitted, and cannot check every item with multiple resources and references they have available.

 

I personally believe more timely and thorough checking of items by NBTHK starts at Jūyō level when the item has already achieved Tokubetsu Hozon status. However the submission number even for this level is still very high but the level of items sent in is also high. For example the latest yearly Jūyō shinsa results got published yesterday by NBTHK, 1097 items in total were sent in and 94 passed, 817 of the items sent in were swords. This is all published by NBTHK. I did some digging on the data on Hozon / Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa NBTHK published. With added speculation by me but I did some calculations that made me arrive at c. 2,500+ items sent into every sword Hozon / Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa that is run currently 4 times in a year. So in a year there would be c. 10,000 submissions for this lower level appraisal. The sheer volume makes it impossible to spend too much time on a single item. However the expert shinsa team has seen thousands and thousands of swords so I believe they can quickly evaluate items with very good results.

 

Unfortunately I can't help much with this Nobuyoshi smith in particular as I focus my research on finding older items.

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

Damn!  Great reply @Jussi Ekholm

[John C]

Jussi: I second Jesse's sentiment. Great reply on the inner workings of NBTHK! And thank you for the research. I appreciate it.

 

John C.

[John C]

Steve:

Thank you for the link. Now I can see how that character may have been formed that way.

 

John C.

[Rivkin]

I can only add that I had experience with a shinto blade being issued "no judgement", which is common when what is submitted is signed by the likes of Sukehiro (i.e. the most faked name), the work is good, but the signature has a few strange points - and much-much later it was resubmitted (by someone esteemed in nihonto circles) and passed. With this level they do want to find more or less an exact match in the records.

It can be a biting experience with smiths like Shinkai, Masakiyo and others who changed their signature and "transitional types" are somewhat lesser known.

With chujosaku its a bit more relaxed, and with Muromachi lower grade items more so.