Russo-Japanese type 8 came in today and I’m confused

[Bridges]

hello all, I had recently posted the sword in the military swords forum for identification and I decided to buy it but when it arrived let’s just say I was a little disappointed. Upon removing the blade from the packaging, I noticed the hilt was loose on the blade. The  mekugi for sticking out one side of the blade and appear to be fractured. I took these pictures before removing it a but a few things seemed off. The first things being the fittings had notches for where the scabbard locks up with the handle. However, that mechanism on NCO swords is not present on this one. So two of the fittings seem to not match the sword. As I removed the handle, I could not tell if the handle is bone or plastic but I believe it to be plastic. Is this common for early swords in the 1900s? The hilt appears to be brass and there is no signature on the nakago but a cross like marking. At the end of the nakago is not uniform, a piece of square steel is jutting out. It almost seems intentional? The nakago has three holes but there is only one mekugi going through the hole closest to the blade. Apparently where the chrysanthemum is where the second mekugi would be appears to be filled in on one side by some type of metal. There are filing marks that appear to be present when I remove the handle on the Nakago closest to the end of the blade. I will post these pictures in IMGUR due to their being 30 pictures and I am unable to post that many in here. The scabbard appears to be pretty heavy and has some minimal pitting on the surface. But touching back on the fittings the fittings consist of two brass and one leather fitting. On top of the hilt between the Habaki and hilt resides the leather fitting with the cut out for the locking mechanism and a normal brass one underneath. Underneath the hilt is where the final brass fitting is which separates the handle from the brass hilt. I ordered a resource that is still in the mail and enroute to me but until then I’m kind of in the dark. Although a lot of the stuff does not add up, if this is a fake then it is extremely poorly done. It may not be fake but I am still a beginner and am pretty reliant. I heard the cross looking mark is the sign of blades cut down but I’m not sure. I want to give this sword a chance but I’d appreciate some feedback as there is VERY little information on Russo-Japanese kyu gunto swords online.

https://imgur.com/a/BB5bQQM

 

 

[DTM72]

5 hours ago, Bridges said:

As I removed the handle, I could not tell if the handle is bone or plastic but I believe it to be plastic. Is this common for early swords in the 1900s?

The nakago has three holes but there is only one mekugi going through the hole closest to the blade. Apparently where the chrysanthemum is where the second mekugi would be appears to be filled in on one side by some type of metal.

The  mekugi for sticking out one side of the blade and appear to be fractured

I'll address your concerns on the items I can help with.

 

Per your pics below, the same' skin was originally painted black, then polished down to remove the high spots. It may feel plasticky to you, but it is 100% real and original to the handle. It also looks as if the original 2 piece brass mekugi was broken/lost so the hole was plugged to keep the backstrap attached to the handle core. Looking closely at the part where the D-Ring inserts into the handle core, the large node of the ray skin are noticable.

 

The hole in the tsuka appears to lin-up well with the hole in the nakago. I would venture to say that the mekugi was crudely fashioned by someone to somewhat do the job of holding things together. True mekugi should be made of susudake (smoked bamboo). This has increased strength properties over just raw un-cured bamboo. But since these are not used as weapons of war any longer, most collectors will get a good bamboo chopstick that is tapered, and insert inside the hole, mark the length, remove and cut length, and file ends repeatedly until the mekugi is flush with the surface on both sides.

 

[DTM72]

 

4 hours ago, Bridges said:

Upon removing the blade from the packaging, I noticed the hilt was loose on the blade.

a few things seemed off. The first things being the fittings had notches for where the scabbard locks up with the handle. However, that mechanism on NCO swords is not present on this one. So two of the fittings seem to not match the sword.

 

Looking at the end of your handle core, there is no slot cut into the wood for the release mechanism. Additionally the fuchi does not have a hole for the release button either. Best I can tell, there does not seem to be a square notch in the tsuba (handguard) part of the D-Ring. All that being said, this particular sword was NOT designed to have a release button. So your thoughts of the 2 seppa (spacers) being incorrect, is spot-on. Additional seppa (without the square notch) will be required to tighten-up the tsuka (handle) to the habaki. I may be incorrect but I do not think leather seppa were used on the this type of blade. I have seen them used on the calavry swords and the parade sabers, but not on this type. <-- Not 100% sure on that one. With additional brass seppa, the mounts will tighten-up nicely. <-- easy fix.

 

[DTM72]

5 hours ago, Bridges said:

there is no signature on the nakago but a cross like marking. At the end of the nakago is not uniform, a piece of square steel is jutting out. It almost seems intentional? The nakago has three holes but there is only one mekugi going through the hole closest to the blade.

 There are filing marks that appear to be present when I remove the handle on the Nakago closest to the end of the blade.

I heard the cross looking mark is the sign of blades cut down but I’m not sure.

The Cross type marking looks like katakana (Japanese symbols for sounding out words of foreign origin) I have a smaller one on one of mine that is the katakana symbol for "MO" My blade that has the MO symbol happens to be a Murata blade. 村田刀. Looking at your blade, it looks to be either a Zohito 造兵刀 or a Murata. Zoheito were designed to be a mass produced arsenal blade. Your blade does not appear to have a hamon or jihada so that leads me to believe this is a machine made blade.

[DTM72]

Lastly, I will say, this is NOT a fake kyu-gunto. It is 100% authentic Type 8. It does NOT have the desireable remounted Nihonto as others do. With some quality brass seppa and a good fitting mekugi fitted, this will be a decent outfit. If this is your first Japanese sword, there is not much to learn about nihonto from this. If you paid $500 for it, you did ok. (Not great but not bad) The parade sabers with a chrome plated blade, dull edge and acid etched hamon are selling for $250-$350.

 

Wishing you the best.

 

Dan

[Bridges]

@DTM72wow thanks Dan! I really appreciate this. I will look into getting a brass seppa to fix the issue! Lastly, do you have any points of information for me to refer to? You’re clearly informed on the matter and I would like to make myself that way for future purposes. Side note, I spent 335 on the sword, I talked him down so you gave me some reassurance on that as well 

[DTM72]

I have been collecting for over 25 years. Seen many variations in-hand. I also have Fuller & Gregory books as well as the Jim Dawson books for reference. Lastly, we both have access to the NMB for guys far more knowledgeable! 

As for the seppa, get a 4-5 pieces. They vary in thickness and will probably need to be stacked to make-up for the thick leather seppa. I don't normally recommend eBay but for things like seppa, it is a good place.

 

Japanese seller that is quick to ship. https://www.ebay.com/itm/354381218001?hash=item5282c440d1:g:eIIAAOSwBpFjad7G&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoABKOzbcbLykhDq2PHd%2FxfEPxKaxz9K%2Bra%2FEHN5LGsq1BbyhbpvODfjoKF%2BWmuGSPnble3EXNUwoeJzk6KshpTa5tUIqCx8WvLUlXt89Fa461ayHNGVAPG83JicZFTJjV0x4Ji87K0%2FdVdDxU4gVyyPL0JyWbTC8Ca7GMUXQIXnApiF7y0IgFr9Qn%2FH6GvhA1X2KNA28%2F9FuKETq%2FuyiyE4%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR8bG9q2eYQ

 

Another japanese seller with good quality replica pieces. https://www.ebay.com/itm/285062558211?hash=item425f0d7203:g:cZ0AAOSwCBtjbJN0&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA0IUIN1%2Fvaj3o8OH5Ff3fOfNfJ0hH6lkjuBkEg0ImdWOaiTnYGzXhJAp583raUVI%2BK%2FWE8dsujhxdKMFPUl3OpdEr%2FH%2FtEWX9%2FBh4M7KPxalpF92VepmHVHKlr3YR5Nwd0kl4SfJ%2FVnoFKnCV4MjJ0rTNlGSRF73VpZFvNkWmlH2rhl%2F5S5sN8IMpC3eMhEicGsLAVKDS6epqCqr4qkpGvi2I%2FBjV5MkgAxadr2P0W9ltYGM07zLgeKd8osMT0G4ynSo3d7SVRvt%2FyaRV98r3fo0%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR77G9q2eYQ

 

Chinese seller but has good quality replica stuff 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255188067309?hash=item3b6a64e3ed:g:YjAAAOSwoJ5eoByH

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255793809994?hash=item3b8e7fca4a:g:DUsAAOSwAG9fK-LU

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255225747505?hash=item3b6ca3d831:g:7~sAAOSw955fbbF3

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255736956236?hash=item3b8b1c454c:g:vGUAAOSwfZxjKrFw&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAkOJcLgSQnNN7Uu4qsomWUeLcdWlwx8JB0To3wAdDKb5t%2B33ggbix6uZdXaNRjT5zjoIAWlRuNa4q%2FJmtwxJc6RCf%2F3d6oDamehDkE%2B%2BqGZi1nmbH%2Fbrv76rdfywZsz0MpVuX4qaw13uICfLR4nr1TNWI%2FeBN44WUiwY8njXGIjpfA291h10sPA8RitstbBT3Bw%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR8TG9q2eYQ

 

Another Chinese Seller with a replica Sakura mekugi for the center of the tsuka. https://www.ebay.com/itm/194712970083?hash=item2d55cc2363:g:begAAOSwpzhgiOqR

[Bridges]

@DTM72i have the Richard fuller Ron Gregory book headed to me now and want dawsons but that book is very expensive lol I’ll definitely buy the seppas I’m just concerned about the replica Sakura. I’m wondering if I remove whatever was filled into that hole if it will damage the handle. Believe it or now, feels like leather filling in the hole.