Grey papers for tosogu?

[shakudo]

Hi all,

Just interested?

Came across these in Japan.

Firstly I can't see how these are a match- the foliage doesn't seem to match - but maybe me! 

Due to this I was surprised to see an origami with all on it! Can't translate it so wondering if there is any clues on it?

Also is the same stigma with grey papered tosogu as with blades?

Regards and thanks

[Bugyotsuji]

The paper says Mumei, so what is 'Moeko Munenori'? The photos are too fuzzy to be of much use when enlarged.

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

i believe those are faded green

[FlorianB]

Looks like an old Tokubetsu Kicho paper (replaced by Hozon paper in 1982).

Example with explanation here: http://www.nihontocraft.com/japanese_sword_papers.html

 

Best, Florian

[shakudo]

Hi Piers,

Apologies for pics, screen shots off listing. Yes mumei so I was wondering about Munenori? No attribution on paper I suppose- rare for that anyway I think. Probably can't see but menuki has subtle gold/ brass highlights and completely different foliage- just surprises me that this could all be papered the one? 

So grey or green- reliable?

Cheers

[Bugyotsuji]

Nothing there that shouts reliable. Deliberate or not? Nothing to really tie all these parts together.

 

Can you show a link to the original Japanese listing, Mike, where at least some of the answers may lie?

[Curran]

I believed I looked at this one on Yahoo!Japan the other day.

 

Old green papers (1970s) that paper these to "Mino".

Not "Ko Mino". Big value difference.

Otherwise, I didn't see anything wrong with this auction. Just some up-selling to call these Ko-Mino (roughly pre-1600) when they are Edo Mino.

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

While writing an update (found the originals), Curran posted above. Agreed.

 

The guy makes out that they cost ￥650,000 originally, but for something *'Soten'. His reputation is 99%, but he could have given us clearer shots of the paperwork and photos. Too many little inconsistencies, I feel, although the Kanzan box attribution to 'Mino' looks right for whatever was in there originally.

 

(The menuki only are given Ko-Mino on the old NBTHK paper.)

 

PS Recently an 'expert' told me that the old distinction between Mino and Ko Mino is no longer thought provable, so people tend to avoid it now.

 

*Ah, this must be the Munenori he refers to, though I cannot yet work out what Moeko is...?

[Curran]

35 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

PS Recently an 'expert' told me that the old distinction between Mino and Ko Mino is no longer thought provable, so people tend to avoid it now.

 

Forgive me Piers, but I must disagree with that one.

It is akin to comparing an original 19th century Tiffany lamp to the Tiffany & Co. products of the 21st century.

Ko-Mino and Mino are clearly related, but Edo era Mino work is largely a sellout departure from the Ko-Mino works that were on par with Ko-Goto. It took me 17 years of actively looking to manage to buy a non Juyo Ko-Mino tsuba. There is a reason so many of the Ko-Mino pieces are Juyo, and I doubt the later Mino ones have many or any Juyo. Same line, but the craftmanship certainly declined into volume over top quality.

 

 

[SteveM]

38 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

I cannot yet work out what Moeko is...?

 

My guess would be 藻柄子. 

 

My two cents: the paper and the auction listing are at odds, the paper is an old, unreliable paper... so there are two red flags already on the field. There is nothing about this auction that makes me think this is a an interesting purchase. 

 

On the other hand, if you are looking for a cheap set of mitokoro-mono, and you don't go overboard at the auction, your downside is not going to be too extensive. But I wouldn't go into it thinking its a papered set of any great value. 

 

The paper says the menuki are Ko-Mino, and the other items are just Mino. I don't trust the papers in the first place, but I wonder if such a set would even get looked at as a proper "mitokoro-mono" nowadays. Anyway, its just another flag on the field. 

[Bugyotsuji]

2 hours ago, Curran said:

 

Forgive me Piers, but I must disagree with that one.

It is akin to comparing an original 19th century Tiffany lamp to the Tiffany & Co. products of the 21st century.

Ko-Mino and Mino are clearly related, but Edo era Mino work is largely a sellout departure from the Ko-Mino works that were on par with Ko-Goto. It took me 17 years of actively looking to manage to buy a non Juyo Ko-Mino tsuba. There is a reason so many of the Ko-Mino pieces are Juyo, and I doubt the later Mino ones have many or any Juyo. Same line, but the craftmanship certainly declined into volume over top quality.

Nothing to forgive, Curran, and thank you for your valuable insight. I am constantly modifying the 'true' shape of things in my head! The difference between Ko-Mino and Mino now has a little ring to it.

[Curran]

My apologies. I think my tone was overly harsh.

My current work at university is largely scolding professors about financial and resource management.

That tone I have to use with them seems to have crept into my NMB posts.

 

[Chishiki]

Hi.   Just a note regarding the tokubetsu kicho papers, they may look greyish now but they are green papers.

The NBTHK give zero credibility to these papers, even with fittings.

 

This year I submitted menuki for Tokubetsu Hozon Shinsa, they had green papers to Umetada.   When my contact took the menuki to  NBTHK there were dismissive of the green papers, didn't want them, totally ignored but my contact persisted and they took the papers and munuki.   After shinsa, when the new Tokubetsu Hozon Papers were picked up (Umetada again) the NBTHK had discarded my original green papers which upset me as they wiped some provenance.    Once upon a time green papers were a direct gateway for modern TH judging but not any more.   I think it was Curran who said something changed about 8 years ago and now we have to start at the beginning.

 

So the NBTHK have wiped the validity of green papers completely which is a remarkable shame as they are in most cases still a valid opinion of appraisal.   Such as this case with my menuki.   I would still pay attention to green papers but knowing in the eyes of NBTHK they mean nothing, as yes of course you could get a different result in a modern shinsa.   As if modern day judges know more than the scholars of the 70's, I wonder.

 

Mark

[Curran]

16 hours ago, Chishiki said:

 I think it was Curran who said something changed about 8 years ago and now we have to start at the beginning.

 

For many years the NBTHK accepted the "1970s" green papers (most are from the 1970s, not all) as a ticket giving you a discount on modern papers. After 20-25 years of this, they seem to have said no more. Probably it was about 8 years ago, when there seems to have been a significant changing of the guard behind the doors at the NBTHK.

 

I'm surprised the NBTHK kept or lost your green papers.  --> I have an important tsuba out of the woodwork with old green papers. I think the signature 98% correct and better than some in the Wakayama references the NBTHK relies on so heavily. I'd like to present the green papers with other evidence, but do not wish to lose them. A color photocopy and scan might be in order.

 

Green papers are not considered 'valid' anymore, but have a certain gamblers element to them. The very old base white paper have/had practically no value.

Some newbies think they (green and white) are valid papers.

Some more advanced collectors think they have 0 (zero) worth.

       In practice, my opinion is that (green papers) are somewhere in between. You have to do your own research. Two of my "Favorite 10" are old mumei pieces that came with green papers that were best effort opinions in the early 1970s. Since then, they've done much better TH to specific makers of great reputation. One of them I will give a shot at Juyo shina next year or the following, though odds of passing are low since not signed.

 

Conversely, something green paper with Somin, Soyo, Omori Teruhide, Yamakichibei, Nobuiye or other such bigger names is unlikely to paper that way in the modern era. Could happen, but it probably won't.

 

[shakudo]

Hi all,

Sorry only have phone and don't know how to send a link for better pics- where is a teenager when you need one?

They reached 220,000 yen, then pulled and relisted starting at 220,000yen- yep- not surprising. 

My main reason for posting was the fact that they aren't a set- but papered as a set. Both mumei and if sold separately would be extremely lucky to realise 100,000 for the two!

Poor form I think on behalf of NBTHK - regardless of 50 years ago- but sadly not surprising. 

Buyer beware!

[Chishiki]

On 12/10/2022 at 6:46 AM, Curran said:

I'm surprised the NBTHK kept or lost your green papers.  --> I have an important tsuba out of the woodwork with old green papers. I think the signature 98% correct and better than some in the Wakayama references the NBTHK relies on so heavily. I'd like to present the green papers with other evidence, but do not wish to lose them. A color photocopy and scan might be in order.

Good idea to give copies, especially as your papers form basis of your research.   I could go on another rant about my experience but it's not going to change anything.   I hope you give us a good write up about your little treasure in the future if you are successful.   Good luck trying to hand them your research.  Mark

[Curran]

1 hour ago, Chishiki said:

Good idea to give copies, especially as your papers form basis of your research.   I could go on another rant about my experience but it's not going to change anything.   I hope you give us a good write up about your little treasure in the future if you are successful.   Good luck trying to hand them your research.  Mark

 

If it works out, I will.

It might be a while though.

[Anthony de Vos]

Hi!

 

Just a reflexion from a newbie. I know the history regarding the ”Green paper fraud scandal”. I don’t think it’s very flattering for an organization to first issue papers for money and then deem them worthless, encouraging everyone to pay more money to get new papers. It’s a great business idea though. Maybe we will se it again in a couple of decades. Todays papers losing credibility, ”new knowledge as the reason. After all, fine fittings to paper is not infinite…

 

Anthony

[Jussi Ekholm]

I think the problems that happened at NBTHK in the past have multiple layers and even though we hear the stories etc. it all happened so long ago in the past and lot of factual information is lost due to time.

 

I am not sure if people know but there were issues at branch shinsa in the early 70's too before the actual "scandal" that ended the old papering and new papering system takes now place only at HQ. I have acquired old Tōken Bijutsu magazines by NBTHK and they do feature some information about this. Unfortunately my Japanese is not suitable to really read/translate articles but I do think I somewhat got the point. For the earliest problems there were few points of action depending on how many items from branch shinsa would be sent to re-evaluation at HQ. Or you could send the item individually to re-evaluation at HQ (not through the branch). These problems led to termination on branch shinsa for a while. They were restarted and I believe run until the "scandal" hit, as it made NBTHK change their system.

 

Personally I agree with Curran that to me they do carry some value. However I would not recommend making purchase based on the green papers, rather buying the item and the papers would be just accompanying the item. I remember Darcy used to oftern give a "barrel example" as in short that as more time passes the more better items with old papers get picked out of the barrel and only weak items remain. It makes perfect sense logically, and as so long has already passed you need to be bit cautious with items that carry old papers. NBTHK did offer in the beginning an upgrade option for the old papers if I remember correctly.

 

For the set in the OP I think Steve made really logical explanation, and I dont think this would pass as a set through modern shinsa, not sure they would pass as a set even though everything would be attributed as Mino. I dont have much knowledge about fittings in general.

[Franco D]

21 minutes ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

Personally I agree with Curran that to me they do carry some value. However I would not recommend making purchase based on the green papers, rather buying the item and the papers would be just accompanying the item.

 

 

Isn't this true for all papers, not just green papers?