2000 year old sword

[Alex A]

So what some of you are saying, they got it wrong in the Conan movie

 

 

[Dave R]

23 hours ago, Alex A said:

So what some of you are saying, they got it wrong in the Conan movie

 

 

 

 Very wrong indeed. Perhaps of interest, there is evidence for China continuing to produce and use "bronze" swords for quite some time after they could cast iron. This I thinks says a lot about their opinion of cast iron swords.

 Apparently later on they developed their own method of carbon reduction, which was to cast thin plates of iron and then decarburise with a prolonged heat in a furnace before forging. In the West we went a different direction with "puddling furnaces".

[vajo]

By Crom Alex you a right 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all,

 

So, some interesting stuff.

 

As David stated in his post-

“Perhaps of interest, there is evidence for China continuing to produce and use "bronze" swords for quite some time after they could cast iron. This I thinks says a lot about their opinion of cast iron swords.”

 

From my previous posts we know that-

“Also, cast iron and bronze foundry workers were not segregated; they often worked side by side at the same foundry. Very likely, the cast iron foundry workers adopted and adjusted the original bronze production techniques and, consequently, maintained the preexisting organization.”

And also-

“Some molds used for casting weapons, coins, and belt hooks also have

been found at the two foundries. It is highly likely that the last two types of

molds were used for casting bronze objects.”

 

So, unfortunately, the article does not state what type of cast iron weapons molds were found.  They could have been arrow heads or a “ji” (polearm) type weapon? 

Then I did some more research and found the reference below-

 

“Ironworkers in China

About 300 BCE ironworkers in China discovered that burning iron ore mixed with charcoal produces a thick metallic liquid instead of a bloom. We now know that carbon from the charcoal mixes with the iron to produce an iron alloy with a melting point that can be as low as 1130°C (2066°F). This temperature is exceeded by the hot-burning charcoal. The hot liquid can be poured into a mold where it cools into hard, durable (but brittle) cast iron.

 

Produce cast iron with different qualities

Although they did not know that the new method worked largely because charcoal is almost pure carbon, the Chinese quickly appreciated the advantages of cast iron over wrought iron. They also soon learned to vary the recipe to produce cast iron with different qualities, such as forms that were less brittle when cooled. The ability to cast the new alloy meant that all of the techniques previously developed for casting bronze or gold could be adapted. Complex shapes could be made in one operation. With wrought iron much working was required for even simple shapes.”

 

From this website=

https://about-history.com/the-usage-of-cast-iron-in-ancient-china-and-its-importance/

 

Not to say that they made “cast iron” swords (although the sword that “captured” my attention for this thread is stated to be a “cast iron” sword that is 2000-years-old).

But this is some interesting research that does raise possible questions about cast iron swords.

 

The adventure continues!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

[ROKUJURO]

Accidentally found: 
 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

The article linked above does not call it a sword, but uses an older character for Hoko 戈 (not the straight blade but hooked or angled like an axe), which Wiki suggests were largely ceremonial and not effective as a practical weapon. It says they are found made of bronze, iron, stone, etc. Thus the idea that a 'cast iron' sword would shatter is true, yes, but may not be relevant to the object unearthed.

戈 - Wikipedia

[Nobody]

1 hour ago, Bugyotsuji said:

The article linked above does not call it a sword, but uses an older character for Hoko 戈 (not the straight blade but hooked or angled like an axe), which Wiki suggests were largely ceremonial and not effective as a practical weapon. It says they are found made of bronze, iron, stone, etc. Thus the idea that a 'cast iron' sword would shatter is true, yes, but may not be relevant to the object unearthed.

戈 - Wikipedia

 

There is another type of Hoko. Thay are more like straight blade.

Ref. 矛 - Wikipedia

 

 

[Alex A]

Good find Jean

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

So, the videos of the sword casting techniques in the movies are funny and show a humorous part of the individuals that posted them!

 

But let us not forget that casting of iron swords would not be done in the way that the videos show how it was done in the movies!

 

I have included a website to a video on how a cast iron kettle was made (and I am sure there are many other videos “out there”).  Of course, cast iron tea kettle casting uses a complete mold; and it is not as “thrilling” as the videos show about casting iron swords in the movies!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqrJC8D3eEs

 

Now, whether a cast iron sword was to be used in battle (highly unlikely) or to be used as a “ceremonial” piece (much more likely according to the previous posts on this thread) the way it was cast would be much more like the cast iron tea kettle casting.  Using a complete mold of sand, sand and clay, or whatever method the “ancient masters” used and whatever cast iron metal “formula” they came up with!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Alex A]

Aye Dan, just having a laugh.

 

As for the Conan vid and im not saying you could make a fighting sword like this. Yes, its far fetched but in its defence the dude does actually re-heat and hammer it into shape. Its not just a case of casting a sword and saying there you go.

 

In Jeans vid, the guy describes other issues.

 

Interesting vid that you present.

 

Sometimes when you don't know what your talking about you have to stick your neck out and ask what may sound like a stupid question, so here goes 

 

Is it possible to cast a really rough overly large sword type thing, re-heat and gently knock it into the shape of a "not for war" small sword ?

 

If so, does that mean we have got to the bottom of this?.

 

 

 

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Alex,

 

Part of your post is quoted below-

 

“Sometimes when you don't know what your talking about you have to stick your neck out and ask what may sound like a stupid question, so here goes

Is it possible to cast a really rough overly large sword type thing, re-heat and gently knock it into the shape of a "not for war" small sword ?

If so, does that mean we have got to the bottom of this?.”

 

My friend, I do not consider any question “stupid”!

 

Unfortunately, I am not a metallurgist or a person that has done casting of cast iron pieces.  The only thing I have cast is lead for making bullets for reloading!  But I can tell you that even that is a “science” and almost an “alchemy” type situation in mixing the lead with the tin in just the correct proportions!

 

I can only imagine how the “ancient masters” mixed cast iron!  Maybe with the proper mix of metals, they could gently hammer the cast iron?

 

Anyway, about casting a rough overly large sword and re-heating it to gently hammer it into shape, I am certain that the “metallurgists” out there will answer your great question!

 

Onward!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Dave R]

15 hours ago, Alex A said:

Aye Dan, just having a laugh.

 

As for the Conan vid and im not saying you could make a fighting sword like this. Yes, its far fetched but in its defence the dude does actually re-heat and hammer it into shape. Its not just a case of casting a sword and saying there you go.

 

In Jeans vid, the guy describes other issues.

 

Interesting vid that you present.

 

Sometimes when you don't know what your talking about you have to stick your neck out and ask what may sound like a stupid question, so here goes 

 

Is it possible to cast a really rough overly large sword type thing, re-heat and gently knock it into the shape of a "not for war" small sword ?

 

If so, does that mean we have got to the bottom of this?.

 

 

The higher the carbon content, the harder to forge or work in any way, which is why you get all the other processes used in the past to get a workable metal. So, no you really  cannot cast a really rough overly large sword type thing, re-heat and gently knock it into the shape of a "not for war" small sword. It's barely possible with Wootz which demands such a special skill set that Western smiths pretty well gave up on it. What do I reckon, I reckon some non technical writer got it wrong and sent us all down the rabbit hole.

[ROKUJURO]

Dan,

there are no iron tea kettles. They are water kettles.

[Jacques D.]

It's digressing hard as usual

It seems to me that there is a misunderstanding from the beginning. Unfortunately I don't have access to the study because it is not in my field of expertise, but I can tell from the abstract that it is an iron sword that would have been cast and not forged. Considering the age of this sword it seems relevant to me because we are (unless I am mistaken) in the transition period between the Bronze Age and the Iron Age.

 

[Dave R]

20 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

It's digressing hard as usual

It seems to me that there is a misunderstanding from the beginning. Unfortunately I don't have access to the study because it is not in my field of expertise, but I can tell from the abstract that it is an iron sword that would have been cast and not forged. Considering the age of this sword it seems relevant to me because we are (unless I am mistaken) in the transition period between the Bronze Age and the Iron Age.

 

 

 Personal experience buying from Japan... they often get mixed up between Iron and copper alloy and post one when they mean another. Unless we can get confirmation otherwise, this might even be cast bronze.... 

[Nobody]

 

The sword in question in Yao city museum

Ref. 八尾市立歴史民俗資料館｜収蔵品 (plala.or.jp)

 

Found at Otakenishi Remains (stratum of 2000 years ago).

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

It is worth translating Moriyama San’s link above, if someone has the time and inclination. Here it is called a 検 Ken and not the old character for 戈 (or 矛)Hoko as in the other article.

It is described as iron to which a magnet sticks firmly, and proves to be iron under various other scan analyses. Small ‘holes’(?) in the material suggest it was not hammered/forged.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all,   So, here is the English translation of the web link referred to by Moriyama San's post above.   There is a picture of the sword on that link, but I couldn't figure out how to download it!   Quote-   "An iron sword found in the Otake Nishi Ruins. Length 35.8 cm, maximum width 3.6 cm, weight 225 g Found in 　a pit-like structure (a hole-like trace) built on the bank of a river in the late Yayoi period. When I first found it, I thought it was a copper sword because it had a greenish color without rusting red. However, when I tried bringing a magnet close to it, I found that it was an iron sword, not copper, because it stuck to it. In addition, as a result of X-ray transmission test and X-ray CT imaging, it was found that there is a small hole called "su". From this, it is understood that it was not made by forging, which is made by striking iron, but by casting, which is made by pouring iron into a mold in the same way as bronze swords. It turned out to be the only cast iron sword in the country. 　 　This iron sword was excavated on a board in a hole made by the waterside. It is thought that it was used for the festival held at this place. What kind of wish did the person who held the festival by the water offer this iron sword? (Higuchi)"   Onward! With respect, Dan

[John C]

 

5 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

What kind of wish did the person who held the festival by the water offer this iron sword? (Higuchi)

Being cast and possibly used as an offering, the sword my never have been intended for traditional use. Therefore, the material used was less important than the intended religious significance. Just a thought.

 

John C.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

So, I have some questions that I think may be of interest.  Now, I have included a weblink of an over 2000-year-old Chinese bronze sword.  The blade of the sword pictured in that link is about 32 cm.  The blade of the cast iron sword stated in this thread is 35.8 cm. 

 

https://www.worldhistory.org/image/7492/eastern-zhou-dynasty-sword/

 

The only sword I have to compare the 2000-year-old sword blade found in Japan is to the picture of a Chinese bronze sword found in the above website.  In a previous post to this thread, it was referenced that bronze and cast-iron forges and techniques were located close to each other and worked by the same foundry workers.

 

These swords are shaped like the Roman Gladius short swords.  The swords were primarily used as a thrusting type of weapon.

 

I am not saying the cast iron sword found in Japan was used in warfare.  It is more than likely just a “ceremonial” piece.

 

Although it was fortunate that the cast iron sword mentioned in this thread did not rust to “nothingness”!  I imagine that if there were more cast-iron swords that were made and were that old, there would be nothing left of them!

 

But what if that cast iron sword was a weapon?  Could a cast iron sword be used as a thrusting weapon?  I know from previous threads that cast iron can be very brittle when hammered and shatter when hammered with a steel hammer, even when it is annealed properly to make it less brittle (and even then it can still be shattered with a steel hammer).  Is it possible for a cast iron blade to be sharpened at all (not razor sharp but sharp enough to penetrate leather armor if used - or whatever type of armor -or not- was used 2000 years ago)?  Could a cast iron sword deliver a deadly thrust to an opponent?  Could a cast iron sword withstand a “blow” from a bronze weapon without being shattered?  Maybe this is a little “off thread”, but I think it is very interesting!

 

I am not saying that cast iron was used as a metal to make swords for battle.  But is it a possibility?  Again, I just think that this is a very interesting question!  Although I do not know how one would conduct an experiment to find out the answer!

 

The adventure continues!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

 

[1kinko]

Just send it Forged in Fire and tell them to stick through a side of beef!

[Jacques D.]

Quote

I just think that this is a very interesting question! 

 

Dan,

Yes it is, but nobody here has the answer

[vajo]

 

Forging iron only with stones. A very good document.

[Brian]

Amazing. And so many similarities with what the Japanese were doing, albeit on a more primitive scale. New respect for some of the African weapons.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

Aha!  I found a video about a guy casting a cast iron sword and testing it on a banana (well the banana was "over ripe"), an apple, twigs, and a small log.  Then he tested it (or what was left of it!) against a bronze blade and a forged steel blade.

 

Now, you can make your own decisions on the results.  My decisions are “can a cast iron blade cut” – yes.  Can it “withstand a blow from a bronze sword”-yes.  Can it “withstand a blow from a forged iron sword” – no. Can it be used as a “thrusting type” weapon – yes (although that test wasn’t done in the video, but it looks like it has the strength to easily thrust through something that would represent a human body).  Can it be “used to chop a small log” – no.

 

Now, I can’t tell from the video if the cast iron sword was “annealed” to make it less brittle.  Or perhaps if it was cast in a two-piece mold (like the bronze sword) it would have turned out better.  Or how well it was sharpened. But it is an interesting video and an interesting experiment!

 

Of course, this doesn’t prove that cast iron swords wherever used in battle.  Could they have been, maybe or maybe not!

 

So here is the link (start at about 12:58 for some background information and for the testing procedures)-

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHS0NXr1xbk&list=RDCMUCfIqCzQJXvYj9ssCoHq327g&index=6

 

Onward!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

[Alex A]

Thanks Dan, that vid answers a lot for me.

[ROKUJURO]

Dan,

the video is not "interesting" as you call it. It might be interesting for you personally, but in fact the actors worked quite amateurishly, and I could tell from the way the bloomery kiln was operated that it would not be successful. Casting iron is another thing, and the guys did not seem to know the basics. 

The bronze sword was obviously not hammered, and the forged sword was not steel.
 
The outcome was completely predictable, so no surprise, and no knowledge was gained.

[Dan tsuba]

Jean, my friend.

 

The only thing that is “predictable” is your constant negativity.  If you know so much, why try “belittling” me and others and say that “no knowledge was gained”?  Did you have a bad day today?

 

Anyway, I await your “professional and superior” video showing the same scenario as the “amateurs” did in their video.  If you think you can do it better, have at it!

 

Let me know when your video is completed.

 

Dan

[OceanoNox]

While I cannot judge the dating of the sword itself, both the paper by Nojima and the Yao city report clearly state that the sword is cast iron, and they cite evidence from X-ray transmission imaging (numerous cavities) as one of the proof that the sword was cast. An earlier article is also cited in the Nojima report, showing that, in Japan even, some researchers did not believe that long and thin items (such as this blade) could have been cast with the technology.
In the conclusion of the Nojima report, it is said that cast iron items (pig iron in the text) were decarburized (as they are now when making tea kettles). The report states that while large production was difficult in earlier times and there are still many unknowns, the large spread of "pig iron items" from Nara period to Heian period shows the ability for mass production.

 

As an aside, the Yao city cultural report was written by specialists in their fields, and I find insulting to comment on their abilities without even skimming the report.

 

Here are the links reposted, just in case:

Nojima report https://ir.lib.hiroshima-u.ac.jp/files/public/3/36130/20141028020046845818/KAKEN23520946_Nojima.pdf

Yao city report (2008) https://sitereports.nabunken.go.jp/en/4618

[1kinko]

I mean no insult, but I can’t read kanji and can’t even imagine the gobbledegook (word of the day?) that would come out of Google translate, much less skim this. However, the 1 cross section shown in this article, while showing inhomogenuity, did not show the typical grain of cast iron (as was shown in the video).