Picked up a new tsuba, need some advice

[EdWolf]

Hello all,

Picked up this tsuba. There is a small number painted on it. Maybe an inventory number. Would you remove it or leave it? If removing, how to approach without damaging the tsuba.

Thanks for your help.

Regards, Ed 

[FlorianB]

Sure it's painted? Looks more like a plastic label with a number on it...

 

Florian

[ROKUJURO]

For me, it is a part of the TSUBA's history and I would leave it on. 

[Spartancrest]

IMO I would leave it alone, it is a part of the guards history. Do you have any provenance on the tsuba at all? The numbers are very neatly done, it is possible they may have been from a prominent collection or even from a museum sale.

[John A Stuart]

If it isn't easily removed I wouldn't bother. I have many artefacts numbered from old museum pieces and it is just fine a does not detract. Your choice. John

[EdWolf]

Unfortunately, no provenance at all. 

Not sure about painted but it is not easily removed by rubbing. You guys are probably right. Leave it, part of the tsuba history. Thanks to all!

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Ed, nice meeting you for the first time!

 

So, that is a really great picture you took of your tsuba!  I just couldn’t keep from looking at it and noticing certain items. 

 

Now, I don’t want this post to become another “can of worms” (for others that may happen to read this!) on the forum, but I had to comment on your tsuba.

 

Now, there is another thread on this forum titled “Tsuba casting molds”.  I (and others) have done extensive research on the subject.  One of the hypothesis stated is that some Edo period tsuba were made out of cast iron and sand cast.  Although there are no extant (or not yet translated?) documents attesting to that fact.

 

My personal opinion is that your tsuba looks sand cast.  I purchased a Japanese made sand cast cast-iron bottle opener (cast in the old traditional way-if you wish you can find that information on page 8 of the above-mentioned thread) that I use now to compare the texture of what tsuba I think are sand cast to the texture of the bottle opener (have included 3 pictures below of my bottle opener and the picture of your tsuba for a (sight only!) comparison of textures.

 

Your tsuba looks old, and as stated by Spartancrest in part of his post “The numbers are very neatly done, it is possible they may have been from a prominent collection or even from a museum sale”.

 

So, not only is the texture of your tsuba interesting but also what appears to be a “crack” at the bottom of the seppa-dai in your picture.  I can’t tell if that is a crack due to improper “annealing” of the cast iron (to make it less brittle) or if that is some sort of “left over” casting mark?

 

Anyway, I would be interested in your thoughts and if you think the texture of the sand cast (cast iron) bottle opener looks similar to the texture of your tsuba.

 

Not that this would prove or disprove anything, as your tsuba may have been made after the Edo period and if made during the Edo period it may not be cast (unfortunately there was no provenance that came with it, and there is no way to tell for sure without metallurgical testing). 

 

This is just for my own knowledge and my own inquisitiveness.

 

Thanks, and I hope to read what you think of the comparison!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

[Okan]

Hallo Ed, most probably a museum inventory number. I have one like that as well..keep it

[EdWolf]

Hi Dan,

Thanks for your post. I have compared the tsuba with your pictures but the texture is definitely not the same. I shall try to take better pictures tomorrow. Hard to take pictures without proper daylight.

No crack in the seppa-dai.

Regards, Ed

[Dan tsuba]

Ed,

 

Thank you so much for your quick reply and making the comparison!  Much appreciated!  That is a really interesting tsuba you have there, I wonder if it did come from a museum collection?  I have nothing like that!

 

The adventure continues!

 

With respect,

Dan

[ROKUJURO]

Ed,

to my eyes, your TSUBA does not look cast at all, so no worries! And if you were unsure, please have a look at the TAGANE marks. They would never be as deep and precise if it were cast iron.

[Okan]

Looks Shoami to me..

 

 

[Okan]

Yup..here is a similar design.

 

[EdWolf]

I have tried to take some better pictures of the tsuba. I don't believe it is cast, no worries from my side.

@Okan, thanks for showing a similar design. I also thought it could be Shoami.

 

[FlorianB]

Ed,

In my view the surface structure is result of corrosion. It seems that parts are laquered?
Those tagane on the back in groups of five could be found on Shoami and Kanayama pieces, neatly done here. Similar to one of mine:

 

Dimensions could help to pin down the origin, but Shoami seems most likely.

 

Florian

[EdWolf]

@FlorianB thanks for your help. The dimensions are:

Width 67 mm height 70 mm en thickness 4-5 mm.

 

 

 

 

 

[Soshin]

 

Thank Ed for posting better photos of your new tsuba. I am of the educated opinion that these antique iron tsuba were all forged from iron and not at all cased. Modern cheap reproduction of the antique ones I have seen use a casting method that would then be hand finished that would produce a nonfunctional facsimile. 

I really like these types of iron tsuba with symmetrical openwork design. In this photo you can clearly see a forging flaw in the iron surface was opened because of rusting of the forged iron plate causing permanent corrosion damage to what was once a smooth surface.     

[EdWolf]

Hi David, thanks for your opinion. Highly appreciated.

I totally agree with you that the tsuba is showing signs of forging.

Regards, Ed

[MauroP]

The design alone could suggest many different attributions. Looking at the oblique images a certain layering may point to Akasaka school.

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

I would send it to Ford and have it taken off.  looks doofy and would annoy me and lessen my pleasure in ownership. 

[1kinko]

It’s just paint. Any organic solvent will remove it. The less polar the better. It won’t affect the patina unless it’s polar.

[rkg]

20 hours ago, 1kinko said:

It’s just paint. Any organic solvent will remove it. The less polar the better. It won’t affect the patina unless it’s polar.

 

FWIW, you have to kind of be careful when you decide to do that. Using anything caustic will remove any period urushi that's on the piece in short order, the piece might have been "brown waxed" or otherwise primped at some point and you can open yourself up to a world of pain if/when you blow a hole in that (do you try and copy whatever they did, strip the piece and deal with the rust, etc).  And actually, while probably not true for this piece, on some work that wax can be original to the piece (Hirata work for example) and they would use multiple layers of different colors of wax to create effects.  I don't happen to have a pristine Hikozo to show this (someday maybe), here's an example where the wax is original to the piece as part of its decoration:

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

[1kinko]

I agree about the use of caustic solvents like paint removers that have acids in the formulation. That’s my point about using non-polar organics. And, like you said, this piece appears to be simple iron/steel, not waxed or coated with urushi. Even if it was covered with urushi, I doubt a non-polar solvent would  have any effect but I have no actual hands on experience trying. Interestingly, I have tried to remove cashew with non-polar solvents with zero success once it’s dried, but, for what it’s worth, caustic paint remover also failed to remove dried cashew!