I apologize - combat in shiasaya?

[cspage]

I realize that this question is predicated on some contemporatry movies, and I apoligize up front on this should it become a ludicrous question, but...is there any evidence of combat in actual records regarding combat with katana in shirasya instead of in full koshirae? Kill Bill was on TV recently and I noticed some of the combat was with katana in shiasaya. Dumb, I admit. My irrepresible curiousity.

 

Colin

[Lorenzo]

Between yakuza sounds common :D

[Ted Tenold]

I don't think anyone can say it absolutely *never* happened, but it certainly wasn't the norm for combat. :lol:

[cspage]

I was just wondering if anyone might be familiar with old prints, other images that may depict such. Again, just curious. Thanks for the pic, Ted.

 

Colin

[b.hennick]

I have a WWII blade that has a saya that is a leather covered shirasaya. Same wood same shape. The handle has older fittings. So that blade was taken to combat in a shirasaya - not shiratsuka..(is that a word - seems to work) :D

[hybridfiat]

I would speculate that the shirasaya was made to be functional for a very good reason. No samurai wants to be caught out with a naked blade if his house is attacked.

[Mark Green]

Colin and gang,

I would think that it has liklely happened. But, I would sure rather have a nice tsuba in front of my hand!!!

Does anyone know when Shirasaya came into play? I can't say that I have ever seen an old print with one shown. I have seen storage boxes for swords, in old prints, but never a Shirasaya.

My guess is that in the old days Edo, and back, people kept their swords ready for combat all the time. In fittings.

I think Shirasaya are likely modern collector inventions.

Mark G

[Baka Gaijin]

Good morning all,

 

If you scan most if not all of the many Yakuza films starring the late great Takakura Ken, you will see shirasaya being used in urban combat.

 

See:

 

1.Abashiri Bangaichi: Bokyohen Dir: Ishii Teruo 1965

not to mention the host of follow ups:

2. Abashiri Bangaichi: Aku eno Chosen (1967)

3. Abashiri Bangaichi: Dai-setsugen no Taiketsu (1966)

4. Abashiri Bangaichi: Fubuki no Toso (1967)

5. Abashiri Bangaichi: Hokkai-hen (1966)

6. Abashiri Bangaichi: Ketto Reika 30 do (1967)

7. Abashiri Bangaichi: Koya no taiketsu (1966)

8. Abashiri Bangaichi: Nangoku no Taiketsu (1966)

9. Shin Abashiri Bangaichi (1968)

10. Shin abashiri bangaichi: arashi yobu danpu jingi (1972)

11. Shin abashiri bangaichi: Arashi yobu shiretoko-misaki (1971)

12. Shin Abashiri Bangaichi: Dai Shinrin no Ketto (1970)

13. Shin Abashiri Bangaichi: Fubuki no Dai-Dassou (1971)

14. Shin Abashiri Bangaichi: Fubuki no Hagure Okami (1970)

15. Shin Abashiri Bangaichi: Runin-masaki no ketto (1969)

16. Shin Abashiri Bangaichi: Saihate no Nagare-mono (1969)

 

And of course the marvellous outing for Robert Mitchum and Takakura Ken

 

The Yakuza Dir: Sidney Pollack 1974

 

Just to up end the thread slightly, the matter of a wooden or bamboo blade in a koshirae, the once proud Samurai forced to sell his blade has become part of Japanese Chanbara Eiga genre.

 

See:

 

Tasogare Seibei (Twighlight Samurai) Dir: Yamada Yoji 2002

 

Seppuku (Harakiri) Dir: Kobayashi Masaki 1962

 

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Not entering the core of the topic, I would highlight that under an historical point of view

usually :

 

a) ancient scrolls are (usually) quiet reliable.

b) Edo prints are less reliable.

c) movies most of the time are not accurate, then not reliable.

[Henry Wilson]

I think I read somewhere that the shirasaya is relatively recent and came into existence when the sword was becoming more of an object that represented a samurai's authority as opposed to a weapon to be used. I think this and ever-so-lovely polishes.

[Guido]

c) movies most of the time are not accurate, then not reliable.

In a movie I saw a guy in kind of a blue latex suit, red cape and big "S" on his breast flying around, stopping trains with his bare hands and making love to girls for hours (although the latter might just be part of my imagination) - are you seriously telling me he doesn't exist???

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Guido, I said "most of the time". Obviously your example is one of the few good ones... :D

[Baka Gaijin]

Afternoon chaps,

 

Good points Carlo & Guido.

 

However, I suggest the source of the celluloid yakuza using blades in shirasaya may come from an actual event which was romanticized by the woodblock artist Yoshitoshi in his series Kinsei Kyogiden of 1865, about fifteen years after the real events took place.

 

The series tells the story of two gambling rings in 1849 and their struggle for power. Iioká Sukegorô led the larger, stronger gambling ring, while a man named Hanzô led the other smaller ring comprised of Fishermen and market workers. During an epic battle, Hanzô’s smaller force of twenty-five was able to drive away the larger force while only suffering one casualty. After the battle the Edo police cut off all means of escape for Sukegorô’s men. At this time one of Sukegorô’s men, Seiriki Tamigorô, took his gun and shot himself. The fighting between these two rings continued on even after this battle. happened, and also became the source of the Zatoichi sub genre.

 

A blade in shirasaya is somewhat similar to the oroshi hocho long blade used for cutting Tuna in the Fishmarket, may this be the source of the Post Modern mythology?

 

See illustration:

 

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgur ... %26hl%3Den

 

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

[Brian]

I daresay that looking for an example to prove an exception to the rule is pretty counter-productive.

It is a fact that shirasaya were never intended for fighting with, and any use of them for that purpose was clearly due to the unplanned-for occasion, and does not prove anything else but the fact that there is an exception to every rule.

 

In other words, no...they were never intended for that purpose, and if they were used that way, it was not typical.

 

Brian

[cspage]

I figured as much, but the discussion was fun. I especially like the tuna fillet knife thing. But, it did bring up the question of shirasaya origins and I hope someone will pick up on that a bit more. I suspect there is useful info in that subject...a new topic, maybe? Thank y'all.

 

Colin

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

But, it did bring up the question of shirasaya origins and I hope someone will pick up on that a bit more.

 

I'll be not that one, not here, not now, but guess you'll enjoy this one :

 

[Keith Larman]

Ever heard the expression "I'd pee on a sparkplug if I thought it would help."

 

The point is that sometimes you use what you have. That might mean wrapping a rag around a nakago and using a bare blade. That might include picking up a large piece of eskimo art I have (Oosic) and beating some poor soul to death with it. In other words, there is a world of difference between what *can* be done and what *should* be done.

 

What is "advisable" is probably a better distinction to make here. Conventional tsuka normally have a number of "layers" of reinforcement. Wood shaped and carved to fit usually glued with rice glue. A metal band is place over the end nearest the tsuba. The wood is (sometimes) totally wrapped in soaked, pliable rayskin and glued in place as the rayskin dries in its expanded state to a rock hardness. That is in turn tightly bound with silk/leather/whatever ito. It is a marvel of composite construction.

 

Compared with a shirasaya tsuka which is generally oversized (difficult to hold correctly as a practitioner) and made solely of unreinforced wood glued together with rice. Hit anything with that and you will run a great risk of the shirasaya tsuka coming apart and the blade going ballistic.

 

So... You *could* do it in a pinch. I wouldn't suggest it -- it ain't what it's for. Never was. You could have a sword cane or have a special tsuka made, but classic examples generally aren't all that nice either. Because it simply isn't a good idea.

 

Maybe with modern materials and modern glues, but then again... then we're talking about something else entirely.

 

It is silly to use a blade in shirasaya. Not advisable. But I'm sure it's happened. But then again I'm sure someone at sometime has used most anything as a weapon including small animals, toilet ballcocks, or whatever silly thing you can think of.

 

Now excuse me while I go cry quietly -- I always thought superman was real... Thanks Guido for ruining my fantasies... Such a downer...

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

(Oosic)

 

Hi Keith.

 

If you're going to make a tsuka from this, I would like to see the result. :D

[Hermes]

Here's one that maybe the real deal on Ebay right now, looks used and has finger grooves cut into the shiasaya as well as some wood taken off the top for a better fit.

 

[Keith Larman]

(Oosic)

 

Hi Keith.

 

If you're going to make a tsuka from this, I would like to see the result. :D

 

Actually... Howard Clark did exactly that a bunch of years ago. It is owned by a customer of mine and in my safe while he's out of the country. Kinda cool in an off the beaten tracking kinda way. Certainly unique. And having half my family tree coming from Alaska, I can certainly appreciate it myself.

 

And I'd trust it a heck of a lot more than that fingergrooved shirasaya tsuka above. Looks to me like someone tried to modify a shirasaya tsuka and found a saya that happened to fit.

 

Again, the issue isn't whether someone can find the obscure reference or the exception. I remember a Japanese blade, mid 19th century if memory serves, clearly tamahagane, but looked like a leaf blade from another culture with a kesho'd fake hamon that was fully mounted in a decent koshirae. What the heck were they thinking there? But that doesn't show anything other than there are always people doing odd things now and then. Finding one doesn't make it a good idea, the norm, or anything else other than maybe a good example of an anomaly...

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Actually... Howard Clark did exactly that a bunch of years ago. It is owned by a customer of mine and in my safe while he's out of the country.

 

Exactly what I was referring to.

[reinhard]

In a movie I saw a guy in kind of a blue latex suit, red cape and big "S" on his breast flying around, stopping trains with his bare hands and making love to girls for hours

 

Where did you get the home-videos of Monsieur Stern from?

 

reinhard