Fake Russo-Japanese saber?

[Bridges]

Hey fellow enthusiasts, correct me if I’m wrong but the Navy Russo-Japanese sabers have a straight handle and the Army have the “Kyo Gunto” style parade handle with Chrysanthemum. Why is it this sword has no chrysanthemum? Is it similar to scrubbing the mums off arisakas in the field or is this a poor fake? I’m contemplating dropping 500 on it so if I can avert a half grand disaster please let me know! Pictures attached or in comments.

[lonely panet]

thats because this is a type 8,  your assuming its a type 19. 

 

drop money on books, arm yourself with information.  jim Dawsons books are the best for identifying kyu's

[Brian]

Do you see $500 there, even if it's genuine?
I'm not hinting...I really don't know as I don't collect these. But I don't see the main things I look for, either rarity, desirability or condition. Anyone?

[PNSSHOGUN]

The blade looks to have been sandpapered.

[Bridges]

2 hours ago, lonely panet said:

thats because this is a type 8,  your assuming its a type 19. 

 

drop money on books, arm yourself with information.  jim Dawsons books are the best for identifying kyu's

Hey Panet, I actually was just considering buying the book military swords of Japan by Jim Fuller but I’m new to this so I’m trying to find the right resource to start with and I think Jim Fullers book is mainly illustrations

[Gilles]

This army kyu-gunto seems to be legit. It is a typical early type with no decoration on the backstrap. The original decoration on each side of the handle (red circle on picture) seems to be missing . It should have been some sakura. Like John said the blade was sandpapered. Otherwise, seems to be OK. This sword dates back the russo-japanese war (1904-1905).

[Bruce Pennington]

I agree, Gilles.  It's a fascinating idea, Noah, that the sakura might have been intentionally removed before surrendering it, like the defaced mums on rifles. 

 

Dawson's book costs more than Fullers, but it's all in color and has more stuff.  Both are essential references.

 

As to the 8 or 19, Dawson says this "Type 8 kyu-gunto scabbards have two suspension mounts.  Both mounts are permanently fixed to the scabbard.  Type 19s initially also had two suspension mounts, but the lower mount on those is removable.  At some time after the introduction of the Type 19s, sword makers began making scabbards with  just one suspension mount.  As a matter of record, Army Uniform Regulations were amended in 1932 to include the provision that the lower mount be removable on swords produced with two suspension mounts."  So, 19s produced before '32 could still have 2 permanent suspension mounts.  Like Gilles said, though, the backstrap pattern on yours appears to be quite early, so it's likely an 8.

[DTM72]

Some of the early Type 19's had a traditional bamboo mekugi AND a brass sakura threaded mekugi that goes in that hole. (See pics below) Need to see pics of the nakago to confirm. I owned one like this, but later sold it to someone who made me an offer I could not refuse. The original brass sakura mekugi could have been damaged or lost and a bamboo mekugi inserted. Keep this in mind if you go to remove the tsuka. 

I agree with Gilles that this is authentic. The parade sabres have a slightly curved handle whereas the nihonto bladed versions have a straight handle to accomodate the nakago. The same' on the handle appears to have been originally black and has worn nicely. The wire wrap is in tact as well. Notice the center belly node of the same' towards the rear of the handle.

Tough to tell from the pics, but the shinogi appears to be high and the blade width looks to taper towards the kiaaski (fumbari). Leads me to believe this could be a koto period blade. Again, provided photos leave a bit to be desired. I would be interested to see the nakago to see what the blade really is. 

Worth $500? I would say yes. This type of mounting (Especially early like this one) is getting harder to find. Perform your due diligence and examine the blade closely for hagire, fukure, and if you can see the hamon at all, look for tiredness. (Hamon dropping off the edge of the blade).

 

On a side note, never could identify the backstrap decorations per F&G, Dawson, or any other ref material. Guessing it's an early version of the field officer grade decoration.

 

All the best.

[lonely panet]

7 hours ago, Bridges said:

Hey Panet, I actually was just considering buying the book military swords of Japan by Jim Fuller but I’m new to this so I’m trying to find the right resource to start with and I think Jim Fullers book is mainly illustrations

the F&G books have been completely replaced by Dawsons big book, i know a one of the contributors to every F&G books published and evan he thinks they miss identified swords.

 

Dawson's is new,  better and more detailed, and shows more early models and odd sub models. iv own swords shown in both.

Then you would get peaple posting poor suggestions, incorrectly suggesting the wrong model. if the backstap is bare and the guard is decorated its a type 8.  the rest is just ignorance 

heres what to look for,  

[Bridges]

5 hours ago, lonely panet said:

the F&G books have been completely replaced by Dawsons big book, i know a one of the contributors to every F&G books published and evan he thinks they miss identified swords.

 

Dawson's is new,  better and more detailed, and shows more early models and odd sub models. iv own swords shown in both.

Then you would get peaple posting poor suggestions, incorrectly suggesting the wrong model. if the backstap is bare and the guard is decorated its a type 8.  the rest is just ignorance 

heres what to look for,  

Wow, that book costs more than I plan spending on the sword 😅

[Bridges]

10 hours ago, DTM72 said:

Some of the early Type 19's had a traditional bamboo mekugi AND a brass sakura threaded mekugi that goes in that hole. (See pics below) Need to see pics of the nakago to confirm. I owned one like this, but later sold it to someone who made me an offer I could not refuse. The original brass sakura mekugi could have been damaged or lost and a bamboo mekugi inserted. Keep this in mind if you go to remove the tsuka. 

I agree with Gilles that this is authentic. The parade sabres have a slightly curved handle whereas the nihonto bladed versions have a straight handle to accomodate the nakago. The same' on the handle appears to have been originally black and has worn nicely. The wire wrap is in tact as well. Notice the center belly node of the same' towards the rear of the handle.

Tough to tell from the pics, but the shinogi appears to be high and the blade width looks to taper towards the kiaaski (fumbari). Leads me to believe this could be a koto period blade. Again, provided photos leave a bit to be desired. I would be interested to see the nakago to see what the blade really is. 

Worth $500? I would say yes. This type of mounting (Especially early like this one) is getting harder to find. Perform your due diligence and examine the blade closely for hagire, fukure, and if you can see the hamon at all, look for tiredness. (Hamon dropping off the edge of the blade).

 

On a side note, never could identify the backstrap decorations per F&G, Dawson, or any other ref material. Guessing it's an early version of the field officer grade decoration.

 

All the best.

Wow thanks Dan! I’ll definitely do my due diligence and see if I can get better pictures. I will definitely post them if I buy it!

[Bridges]

11 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I agree, Gilles.  It's a fascinating idea, Noah, that the sakura might have been intentionally removed before surrendering it, like the defaced mums on rifles. 

 

Dawson's book costs more than Fullers, but it's all in color and has more stuff.  Both are essential references.

 

As to the 8 or 19, Dawson says this "Type 8 kyu-gunto scabbards have two suspension mounts.  Both mounts are permanently fixed to the scabbard.  Type 19s initially also had two suspension mounts, but the lower mount on those is removable.  At some time after the introduction of the Type 19s, sword makers began making scabbards with  just one suspension mount.  As a matter of record, Army Uniform Regulations were amended in 1932 to include the provision that the lower mount be removable on swords produced with two suspension mounts."  So, 19s produced before '32 could still have 2 permanent suspension mounts.  Like Gilles said, though, the backstrap pattern on yours appears to be quite early, so it's likely an 8.

That’s what I was wondering as my Arisaka has a missing mum. I’ll probably go with fullers book for now until I can save up for Dawson. Dawsons costs several hundred more than Fullers. Thanks!

[lonely panet]

I disagree with gill.  the sukura dosnt share the same symbolism as the chrysanthemum.

 

so why would it be removed to save face apon surrender?????

[PNSSHOGUN]

It is far more likely the two piece Mekugi was simply lost or destroyed when removed. It is very clear when a Mon was defaced or removed on swords. Once you buy some good reference books you will be relieved you didn't pull the trigger on this sword.

[Bridges]

Not sure if I should post back in here or make a new thread but here it is. I’m bummed there is no signature but I’m seeing some red flags. I’ve had to load pics in IMGUR due to there being  30.

https://imgur.com/a/BB5bQQM

 

note the “tail” on the end of the nakago and the cross looking spot on the nakago. There is a spot for the retaining spring in the scabbard, on fittings but no spot for it on the handle nor the hilt (there is no retaining spring at all). I’m not sure what the handle is made of, either plastic or bone but maybe plastic. The hole mentioned by another user that stated it had a screw in mekugi has been filled in on the handle. The mekugi it came with is severely bent, I’ll post pic on thread.

[PNSSHOGUN]

After the feedback you received from us all you still bought this...!? I would seek a refund if you can.

[Brian]

It's a mix of parts. Which isn't unusual. I wouldn't buy it, purely based on that nakago.
This might even be nicer if you made a wooden tsunagi and displayed it as a koshirae

[Bridges]

@PNSSHOGUN Gilles, Bruce and DTm all believed it to be legit so for the price I got it at. It was worth a gamble 

[Bridges]

@Brian I posted a way more complex post in nihonto section regarding the sword. Do you think the blade is machine made or traditional? I may display it as a Koshirae, that’s a great idea. 

[Bruce Pennington]

Noah,

After seeing your detailed pics, I agree with Brian that this is probably an  assembly of parts, with what is likely a late-war blade made in occupied territory.  All the fittings seem to be legit kyugunto.  Like you said, the seppa came from a sword with a latch.  If the blade had been a normal Japanese blade, in kyugunto fittings, I would say the oddities were due to field repair.  But I believe the blade is more likely "island made," to use common term.  The multiple holes mean the blade had been refitted over time, and I'd say the last re-fit was this best-effort, using available parts.  I doubt it is fake.

 

There is certainly the possibility that it's a post war assembly, but the age and grime speak of it all being a wartime item.  Don't know your collecting goals, but I think it served during the war in an occupied location.  But if its not what you expected,  the seller might accept a return,

[Bridges]

Thanks for the input @Bruce Pennington, right now my goals are 20th century Japanese bladed militaria. Which this one barely squeezes in! DTM agreed with your opinion as well. I’ve ordered vintage Seppas and I think I will change the seppas and mekugi out so the sword can at least be tight in the scabbard. I think I’ll keep it as I currently cannot find a Russo-Japanese type less than a grand and this one was purchased by me for $335!

[Bruce Pennington]

I treat all my swords as I treat all my equipment - take care of them and they will take care of you.  So I refurb every sword if it needs it.