Sale of fake Nihonto ( for pd report )

[Nobody]

18 hours ago, SteveM said:

Agree with Moriyama-san that this registration card is fake. It was copied from a real card (a blank), and the fake sword's dimensions were added, and fake stamps were applied to it, as well as a fake embossing.  

 

The card's info says

sword type:                 wakizashi
blade length:               50.2 centimeters
curvature (sori):          2.5 centimeters
number of peg holes: 2

 

signature                      三枚手作の刀  Triple-plate hand-made sword   (obviously this is not a signature, and would never be written in a registration card)

 

the final column in the card is for "remarks", and this one has irrelevant red ownership stamps in it, which are not found on any registration card. This column is usually used for remarks such as "replacement card" for example, when the owner loses the original card. The registration card shouldn't have any embossing on it. 

 

Further, Miura should be spelled 三浦, and on the sword it is mis-spelled as 三蒲 (Mikama, or Migama), which of course would never happen. It could be that the sword is correct and the seller is making the mistake, but...when I search for anyone named Mikama in Japan using the kanji that is on the sword, I cannot find anybody. 

 

Anyway, this is all probably only marginally helpful. 

 

Edit: just to be extra clear, the square stamp on the bottom left, and the partial stamp at the top of the card may be legitimately copied from the original card. These stamps are normal. Its the red stamps in the left column of the grid that are fake. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes Steve, most of the points you pointed out are correct. But I believe that also the blank format is fake.

I do not want to help forgers, so I am not going to show details here. But there are more than five suspicious points in the format.

 

And all stamps are fake.

The characters in the embossed stamp are “財団法人　日本美術刀剣保存協会” (NBTHK). The characters in the larger stamp in the remarks column are “貴重刀剣之證” (a proof to be a kicho-token). How stupid such stamps are on a torokusho.

The bottom left stamp, which is a seal of 大阪府教育委員会 (Osaka Prefectural Board of Education), uses different font comparing to the legitimate seal.

[Brian]

I trust Moriyama san completely. If he says it's completely fake...it IS fake

[Bugyotsuji]

Everything about it is slightly off. Not just sloppy mistakes. They must be deliberate, a whole series of subtle warning signs. Caveat emptor.
 

No point addressing everything, letting him know what’s wrong, or wasting time even looking at it. The fake exported tōrokusho would be breaking Japanese law if it was real but that would not be against the law in the US, unless he is using it as ‘proof’ they are genuine. 
 

This snake oil salesman is tricking the unwary and doing a roaring trade into the bargain, but they are really just toys for ninja wannabes.

 

 

[Katsujinken]

Absolutely horrible. 

[ckaiserca]

Without looking at the blades, the tsukamaki should have been a clue to the sword's legitimacy.

[reinhard]

5 hours ago, ckaiserca said:

Without looking at the blades, the tsukamaki should have been a clue to the sword's legitimacy.

Not posting this for experienced members familiar with the crooks out there.

It is meant to be an advice for the newbies and beginners.

 

LOOK CLOSE AND LOOK CAREFULLY!

 

Japanese craftsmanship is about precision and control.

It has never substantially declined.

 

1) Tsuka-Ito should be wrapped in a symmetrical manner, i.e. left over right, right over left, left over right, and so on..

2) The outline of Tsuka-Ito must be smooth, no bumps allowed.

3) Diamond-shape openings must be uniform and precise.

 

Real rayskin or just a plastic substitute?

 

1) Real rayskin always has a symmetrical structure and is carefully placed on the tsuka.

2) Real rayskin has a natural appearce. Plastic substitutes have not.

 

Menuki underneath Ito.

 

Unfortunately sometimes it is dificult to check menuki underneath ito.

There are are some hints you can go for though.

Does it look like a thin foil of metal stamped out, as in this case, or like a proper menuki.

Do the menuki appear to be three-dimensional?

Are details carefully worked-out, f.e. dragon scales, or not.

 

 

 

[AlphaRaider]

1 hour ago, reinhard said:

Not posting this for experienced members familiar with the crooks out there.

It is meant to be an advice for the newbies and beginners.

 

LOOK CLOSE AND LOOK CAREFULLY!

 

Japanese craftsmanship is about precision and control.

It has never substantially declined.

 

1) Tsuka-Ito should be wrapped in a symmetrical manner, i.e. left over right, right over left, left over right, and so on..

2) The outline of Tsuka-Ito must be smooth, no bumps allowed.

3) Diamond-shape openings must be uniform and precise.

 

Real rayskin or just a plastic substitute?

 

1) Real rayskin always has a symmetrical structure and is carefully placed on the tsuka.

2) Real rayskin has a natural appearce. Plastic substitutes have not.

 

Menuki underneath Ito.

 

Unfortunately sometimes it is dificult to check menuki underneath ito.

There are are some hints you can go for though.

Does it look like a thin foil of metal stamped out, as in this case, or like a proper menuki.

Do the menuki appear to be three-dimensional?

Are details carefully worked-out, f.e. dragon scales, or not.

 

 

 

Thank you, that is very helpful.

 

ThaKS for your other post as well I apperichate the free wisdom.

[AlphaRaider]

So it seems there is nothing the show will do about this vendor. Which is rather disappointing because he clearly violates the rules for the show. No selling counterfeit items, reproductions with out identifying them as such, etc.

 

I found a older gentleman today selling swords there that quite a few people knew. I spoke with him about the gentleman and he was well aware of him aswell. I got his card I'm sure someone from the forum knows him. But it seems like this has been an issue for quite some time. 

 

 Looking more & more like little will be done about him on their end sadly.

 

So hopefully this post will be a warning to new collectors on a guy to avoid.

[John C]

Sounds like this guy is in the same league as those infamous Ebay sellers. Cases like this are often handled in small claims court where the burden of proof is much less. Whether criminal or civil court, it's not what you know to be true but rather what you can prove. Read up on the requirements for both criminal and civil action in your jurisdiction and decide if you have all of the elements for a case. Consult a local attorney for direct legal advice. US courts are notoriously lenient on con men. 

 

John C. 

[Brian]

Post the details of the show hosts.
A few emails to them from concerned collectors and enthusiasts might not be out of line. Guys like this damage the whole hobby and deter new collectors. How many of his customers sit with what they think are genuine swords and investments not knowing they own junk?

[Baba Yaga]

 More worried about looters stampeding the place of business I'm shopping.  Everyone is carrying the worlds information in there back pocket, use it.

Some basic intelligence is needed when making buying decisions.    

[AlphaRaider]

9 hours ago, Brian said:

Post the details of the show hosts.
A few emails to them from concerned collectors and enthusiasts might not be out of line. Guys like this damage the whole hobby and deter new collectors. How many of his customers sit with what they think are genuine swords and investments not knowing they own junk?

I will get the emails from the staff for you tonight. 

 

Their email is also on the show website. Cross Roads Of The West.   Arizona show

[Kinoko Suzuki]

This knife is definitely not a sword.  Moreover, even though the registration certificate is attached, it is a fake registration certificate.

I said that the registration certificate is fake, but the registration certificate before 1975 is not laminated, but the certificate after 1975 is laminated to prevent forgery.  Therefore, judging from the chronology, there is no doubt that it is a counterfeit product, and it is a shame of Japan.

I would like to tell my friends in Japan about this terrible situation.

I hope at least the bad guy who says this is arrested and never comes out again.

[AlphaRaider]

Here is their information. 

 

[AlphaRaider]

Now that I'm back in Colorado I decided to get some really nice pictures of a this fake sword, ha.

 

Please remember this is not glorifying this blade, this is hopefully letting some new sword buyers to know what to look out for. Obviously I bought this before I knew but I wish I did.  The kydex holster did not come with this sword, that is mine.

 

J. Hoff

 

ps. Molly ( the Cat ) disapproves of doo doo swords and knocked it off the table moments after the picture...  

 

 

 

 

[AlphaRaider]

 

J. Hoff

[AlphaRaider]

 

J. Hoff

[AlphaRaider]

 

-J. Hoff

[Bugyotsuji]

Jonathan, helpful for the beginners, yes, but please also be aware that some less scrupulous viewers can use this information to 'adjust' the quality of their wares.

 

As Moriyama San said above, "I do not want to help forgers, so I am not going to show details here." Most of us could go into detail on what they got wrong, but we have mostly held back for the same reason.

[John C]

While I agree we should be careful in not "teaching" forgers what to look for, how then do we "teach" those new to the hobby what to avoid? In this particular case, I think the fraud was more about the misrepresentation by the seller than any detailed minutia of the sword itself. I suspect forgers have access to the same books and physical examples we do. Their ability to make a quality forgery then, is less about the information and more about the time, effort, and money needed for a quality forgery.

Respectfully,

John C. 

[AlphaRaider]

- This isn't a dig at anyone on this site so take the words "you" with a grain of salt  

 

Edit: I won't be removing my pictures unless directed by the proper staff, sadly there isn't much information about fake swords and its possibly one of the reasons I was tricked in the first place and probably countless others. You don't have to point out what's wrong, as long as people know this is wrong and can use this to compare it to other swords than its helpful IMO.

 

Sad truth is most people on nihonto groups aren't very nice in my experience nor do they care to offer any help to new people in the realm ( this site has been the only nice one ) and because they paid a lot of money to learn they don't help anyone else because they haven't put their time in so to speak. They won't allow images on non real nihonto so that people can see what's bad and avoid what they have seen. Type how to spot a fake Japanese sword in on google and you'll get countless sites that display horrible quality pictures and give the user little to no real information.

 

I own a Daytona Rolex watch, if it wasn't for counterfeit watches and the hundreds of videos on how to spot them I wouldn't have been able to get one on the second hand market that was real. So while some people may see it as bad I and thousand of others most likely find it extremely helpful. Some of you most likely don't because you're past the beginner phase and this seems like nonsense to you.

 

I liken fake swords to fake rolex.  you can get a $150 that looks great across the table at a bar and everyone will think is real until its inspected in person, that's swords like this. From a distance it seems fine get closer and things start getting fishy.

 

Spend $750 and you get a watch people can hold and inspect and its likely no one would ever know the difference, until a collector, watchmaker, or sells person gets it in their hands and opens the back up.

 

On the other hand you spend $1,300 on a super rep and not even a average watchmaker will be able to tell unless they have a heavy magnified loop and have spent years servicing them. It will fool even the best of collectors.  I guarantee those swords are out there too.  My photos are not going to give bad people who make fake swords the answers on how to fix them and make them correct, that's complete nonsense. They don't care they just want un informed buyer to purchase them.

 

Like the fake Rolex watches makers im sure fake sword makers have access to the internet, they have tons of money and can buy the real deal ( way more then me, you, and probably everyone you know combined) , they can send students to learn how its made and to polish, they have have the ability to purchases machines and can mimic even the most difficult part with ease these days after paying trained people to run them for them.  It comes down to time spent assembling, the quality of the machining and how much they can get a person for etc. 

 

just my 2cents.  

 

J. Hoff

[Bugyotsuji]

Jonathan, I was not suggesting you take them down, (they are fine!) but just posting a general reminder to all and sundry not to take this into much further detail. Not the blades themselves so much as the fittings and especially the signs (松本 is not 'Mashimoto' etc.), and the supporting 'Japanese authenticity' paperwork. Delicate territory...  Your point has been well made! 

[AlphaRaider]

1 minute ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Jonathan, I was not suggesting you take them down, (they are fine!) but just posting a general reminder to all and sundry not to take this into much further detail. Delicate territory...  Your point has been well made! 

 

Understood, I just want to try to help anyone new like I was ( and still am ) when I made this purchase.

 

I walked around for months with this sword at trade shows, events, showing all sorts of people my new Japanese Sword because I was very proud to have finally got one. Not a single person knew it was fake and if they did they sure didn't share It with me. If I didn't decide to take it further and buy books, join FB groups or reach out to try to make sword buddies and such I would have never known probably.

 

I don't have any clubs in Colorado to my knowledge, books are hard to find and most are rather expensive. But to new people the information on the internet is mostly free

 

J. Hoff

[Brian]

Post them all! Post all the reasons they are fake. Go into detail!
The idea that fakers don't know what is wrong and need us to tell them is ludicrous and just not true. Just like the idea that criminals hang around forums to see who owns what so that they can rob them.
It's just not valid. Never will be. So by all means post everything that is wrong if you like. There will be no change in the production of fakes, at least not based on what we say.
 

[DoTanuki yokai]

Actually I know some of the Chinese makers take advise from Reddit swords and katana related subs to improve their products. 
But the price for this items are far higher then the regular cheap stuff. 
Just some examples of Chinese blades that are better made. 
 

https://www.swordjp.com/product/dragon-katana

 

https://cloudhammerforge.com/products/katana-functional-pop-culture-sx105v-differentially-hardened-ruroni-kenshin-sakabato
 

The market for this Chinese blades is fast growing and evolving lately I think.
Most makers I see don’t try to fraud ( the prices are already the fraud). 
I check daily In the r/Katanas Reddit to help people translate and identify their blades and have seen some increase in the casting quality of fittings. 
I also try to educate people about Nihonto but most just look for “authentic Nihonto” not interested in understanding the differences between them and their makers. 

 

Alpha Raiders Blade is easy to spot as a fake with the offset hamachi munemachi because they make this cheap cast Habaki that fit these for decades. 

 

[Katsujinken]

Brian and Piers are spot on here. 
 

And NMB is indeed a nice place! :-)

 

Meaning no offense to Jonathan, I would humbly submit that anyone who chooses to buy a book or two first (or spend a few hours watching documentaries on YouTube, or look at Japanese dealer websites, which are not hard to find) would spot the fakes being sold by the jerk that swindled Jonathan here from a mile away. They’re terrible terrible fakes. 

[AlphaRaider]

44 minutes ago, Katsujinken said:

Brian and Piers are spot on here. 
 

And NMB is indeed a nice place! :-)

 

Meaning no offense to Jonathan, I would humbly submit that anyone who chooses to buy a book or two first (or spend a few hours watching documentaries on YouTube, or look at Japanese dealer websites, which are not hard to find) would spot the fakes being sold by the jerk that swindled Jonathan here from a mile away. They’re terrible terrible fakes. 

No offense taken by any means.

 

When I first bought this sword it was kind of a spur of the moment thing.  I've always likes swords built didn't really know what makes one authentic vs Chinese made. I had no clue the hundreds of little things that make them what they are vs what they are not.

 

I just saw a guy who I had seen at a bunch of previous shows who happens to sell what I thought was a true Japanese sword. That how he marketed them at least. Dealers don't normaly screw other dealers in the circuit. I'm sure he never thought I'd get this far into understanding what I have or more so what I didn't. 

 

I had money just burning a hole in my pocket so I picked out something I liked and bought it.  I'm glad I have it I've learned a lot because of it, and it does chop stuff so im not afraid to practice with it. Something I don't think I'd do with any of my real stuff.

 

I kinda did the let's buy, then research later kinda deal. Which clearly wasn't a great choice. 

[Baba Yaga]

10 hours ago, AlphaRaider said:

Some of you most likely don't because you're past the beginner phase and this seems like nonsense to you.

 

 

 

just my 2cents.  

 

J. Hoff

 

Greed is not nonsense at all which is why people are taken by grifters. Too good to be true is a golden rule. People in the Nihonto world are plagued by "is this real" all the time. Most of the time they buy 1st and act they're just asking for a friend, or curious. Many argue that it's real when everyone tells them it's not. This goes on daily, so people who know brush it off as you say nonsense.   

 

[b.hennick]

I suggest a visit to the JSSUS website and look at what it has to say about fake swords. You need to scroll down to see photos of fake swords.

http://jssus.org/nkp/fake_japanese_swords.html

[Bugyotsuji]

Jonathan, take a look at this thread to see what can happen inside the Japanese market. The dangers and pitfalls are there all the way along this road and we gotta keep our wits around us.