Sale of fake Nihonto ( for pd report )

[AlphaRaider]

Hello all,

 

So all though it is a bit sad to admit when I started my sword journey I was tricked into a buying a couple swords under the pretense that they were authentic Japanese swords.

I take it as a bit of a learning experience in sorts but also I have been recently suggested by other vendors to file a police report and to take the gentleman to small claims court if I can get substantial evidence or information that it is indeed not authentic. This will also be presented to the show owners to remove the gentleman from attending their shows.

 

The gentleman I bought my first two swords from is a vendor from California who attends Arizona gunshows and sells fake chinese made swords. Anything over $1,000 has a "registration card" with it to prove it was owned in Japan and exported legally.  (not how it works as I'm sure you all know) 

 

The 1st sword purchesed was listed at $1,850 + tax.   The one above it was on sale for $650 if you did cash. As well as a few others.   The week after I bought mine he had an exact replacement.  Sadly I don't think he knew I was a vendor and would see him mutiple times a year.  He's actually right accross the way from our booth this weekend.  I believe it's a mono steel 1095 with a bad hormono engraving, stamped tang.  "Made in osaka" 

 

This is also supposed to be a miura made blade.  The Fittings are obviously Chinese and low grade.  He said the blade was made by miura in Osaka, Japan.  The information stamped into the sword tang does not match the registration card either.  

 

I guess the point of this post is to get some imput to the authenticity or rather lack of,  of the first sword. Any points on what's incorrect would be helpful from anyone who would comment 

 

Pictures are below. Posting shortly...

 

If this kind of post is not allowed I understand, just looking to get advice and information from others to present.

 

J. Hoff

 

 

 

 

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi Jonathon, I think your best course of action would be to have a recognized expert from one of the US sword societies sign a declaration that they are fake. The minutia of proving a sword is authentic would be difficult to convey to the layman without the weight of someone official to back it all up. 

[AlphaRaider]

I will search them and reach out, thank you.

 

That is just the kind of advice I was hoping for in solving this matter and keeping him from taking advantage of others. 

 

J. Hoff

[AlphaRaider]

Addational pictures,  

 

 

[AlphaRaider]

Additional pictures,

 

[AlphaRaider]

Some of the stuff he sales at his booth.

 

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

@Toryu2020 might be a good person to contact

[AlphaRaider]

Additional images,

 

[AlphaRaider]

1 minute ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

@Toryu2020 might be a good person to contact

Thanks, I will reach out to them this evening.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Yes, this is total BS and blatant false advertising.

[Seth]

Oh wow, a quick google search and you will find that these are low-end Chinese swords. I think you already know the answer to your question, sorry this happened. This is why everyone recommends the fantastic books on the subject before the blades.  

[AlphaRaider]

18 minutes ago, Seth said:

Oh wow, a quick google search and you will find that these are low-end Chinese swords. I think you already know the answer to your question, sorry this happened. This is why everyone recommends the fantastic books on the subject before the blades.  

He has those boxes.  It ended up being the second sword I bought.  Says made in Osaka, Japan on it , this one I believe is from a diffrent brand.  The other one clearly says kawashima on it. These ones come out of unmarked cardboard boxes.  

 

I've done some pretty extensive reading on kawashima and the scheme they had going on.  They are out off business to my understanding.

 

Thankfully I now have mutiple books and people to help and even a friend in colorado that has helped. He's on the forum and a stand up guy!  But yes this was before I had any knowledge sadly.  Just a burning hole in my pocket I guess.

[Tensho]

People like this really piss me off. Not only with Nihonto, but I see it all over with other items especially on auction sites. You can't even risk buying name brand items anymore unless its from a registered dealer.

[AlphaRaider]

Hopefully no one knows him or has bought from him. He moves quite a few swords each show.

 

 

 

 

 

[ChrisW]

Sheesh. These are some ugly fakes. It ruins it for everyone else that deals in legitimate pieces as it makes the public assume that the rest of us are selling reproductions/fakes too. Can't tell you the number of times I've had people be surprised at street fairs to be told that what I've got is authentic.

[Bugyotsuji]

Totally agreed, but...

 

Just be careful not to become a target yourself. Be aware that dealers like this often have unseen connections to certain organizations. He himself could even be paying protection money.

 

PS 'Katsumoto' is Ken Watanabe in The Last Samurai!

And 'Seki City, Osaka, Japan'.......... say no more! 

[AlphaRaider]

1 hour ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Totally agreed, but...

 

Just be careful not to become a target yourself. Be aware that dealers like this often have unseen connections to certain organizations. He himself could even be paying protection money.

 

PS 'Katsumoto' is Ken Watanabe in The Last Samurai!

And 'Seki City, Osaka, Japan'.......... say no more! 

I'm a arms and ammunition dealer.  I Never travel anywhere with out a ccw and a sub gun in a fanny pack. Especially out of state.  But I do understand what your saying.  Sadly we live in a volatile world and people will take advantage of anyone they can.

 

A few people have mention the seki city, osaka, Japan thing before as that not being correct.  I didn't put the two together about the last samurai.   That made me smile. 

[John C]

Jonathan:

I have been burned as well, as I am sure many have. But I would caution against taking any kind of action without substantial evidence. Look at what the individual actually posts. Does he say it is from the 16th century or just that it is a Miura ( as in Bob Miura from Anywhere Idaho). In addition, any action would most likely be civil and not criminal (it's easier to prove). Lastly, you wouldn't want to get a suit filed against you for defamation of character if you can't prove your case.

I'm not saying you shouldn't do any digging or evidence gathering, just that you are cautious in your approach.

John C.

[Brian]

The copy of the Japanese registration certificate/torokusho contains the dimensions of the sword. Get that translated. If it doesn't match, it's for another sword and a clear indication of deception. I would take it as far as possible just to prove a point. He won't win a defamation case. These have never been inside Japan and would be illegal there.

[AlphaRaider]

I have him on video saing they are real authentic handmade swords from Japan,  the card was given to me as proof that it was once registered in Japan.  His tags clearly say made in Japan.  Ect. There is a lot. I have gathered pictures and video of him from the last 4 shows he attended. 

 

I have 2 swords from him, and I know about 3 other vendors that have bought swords from him and they are not real either. I've posted both swords on a few nihonto fb groups and had literally 70+ of the " nicest" people tell me it's fake s**t and that it's not real and I should be ashamed to own it ect.   Some nihonto guys on line sure are not nice. But there are bad apple everywhere ha.

 

The mei on the sword and the cert is diffrent.  It's also an old registration number and would fit in that time frame I've been told. The stamps are partial and I was told that isn't something that happens often.  I was also told that if it was properly  exported I would recieve possibly a copy of the orgional not the actual cert itself because either would be held in country. 

 

If anyone on her could translate sizes etc. If possible that would be awesome. Any help is greatly welcomed.  If i can get the sized i will measure it now that i know how to properly do that.  I doubt it would match.  Im pretty sure its a forged registration card. :/

 

[AlphaRaider]

I actually have the sword with me so i will get measurements tomorrow to post. Off to bed shows at noon tomorrow. 

 

I told him I was bringing real swords with me tomorrow to display on my table and he laughed at me and waved me off... I purchesed a $125 dollar table across from his booth  just to show off some real swords hahaha

[Nobody]

26 minutes ago, Brian said:

The copy of the Japanese registration certificate/torokusho contains the dimensions of the sword. Get that translated. If it doesn't match, it's for another sword and a clear indication of deception. I would take it as far as possible just to prove a point. He won't win a defamation case. These have never been inside Japan and would be illegal there.

 

I believe that the torokusho is also fake. That contains many suspicious points.

 

[ChrisW]

Well... fun fact for you then: it is illegal for the original torukusho to leave the country. The literal best he could do would be a photocopy of the original. If he is claiming these are ORIGINAL torukusho, then he has done something VERY illegal.

[SteveM]

Agree with Moriyama-san that this registration card is fake. It was copied from a real card (a blank), and the fake sword's dimensions were added, and fake stamps were applied to it, as well as a fake embossing.  

 

The card's info says

sword type:                 wakizashi
blade length:               50.2 centimeters
curvature (sori):          2.5 centimeters
number of peg holes: 2

 

signature                      三枚手作の刀  Triple-plate hand-made sword   (obviously this is not a signature, and would never be written in a registration card)

 

the final column in the card is for "remarks", and this one has irrelevant red ownership stamps in it, which are not found on any registration card. This column is usually used for remarks such as "replacement card" for example, when the owner loses the original card. The registration card shouldn't have any embossing on it. 

 

Further, Miura should be spelled 三浦, and on the sword it is mis-spelled as 三蒲 (Mikama, or Migama), which of course would never happen. It could be that the sword is correct and the seller is making the mistake, but...when I search for anyone named Mikama in Japan using the kanji that is on the sword, I cannot find anybody. 

 

Anyway, this is all probably only marginally helpful. 

 

Edit: just to be extra clear, the square stamp on the bottom left, and the partial stamp at the top of the card may be legitimately copied from the original card. These stamps are normal. Its the red stamps in the left column of the grid that are fake. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brian]

Thank you Moriyama San and Steve San!
Very helpful indeed.

[Toryu2020]

So this is not Harunaka Hoshino?

Not sure if we know this guy but we are happy to help if we can - please feel free to message me thru this board or email ncjsc.president@gmail.com

 

-t

[AlphaRaider]

10 hours ago, Toryu2020 said:

So this is not Harunaka Hoshino?

Not sure if we know this guy but we are happy to help if we can - please feel free to message me thru this board or email ncjsc.president@gmail.com

 

-t

It is not Harunaka Hoshino, I believe I have an email mail from him. He sent me an email once of the Smith that made the sword. I confronted him once before about it being fake and he gave me this long story and sent me a pic to "prove" it was real.

 

I'll have to search for it.  I will reach out to you this evening. We just left the show and are heading to dinner.

[AlphaRaider]

If posting his name/ is not allowed please let me know. I'm not going to post his email.  Don't wish to have people contacting him about this just yet.

 

This was an email the vendor in question showing me a photo of who made the sword.

 

Below is also a screen shot of one of the Google translations.  Some times I get Miura and some times I get the minoru name. Its mixed.

 

[Brian]

It's ludicrous that he even claims to present this as made in Japan. Like so far out of the realm of possibility as to be impossible.
That "horimono" isn't even remotely Japanese and is either etched or actually CNC machined...likely etched.
The finish on the nakago, the nakago jiri and the yasurime are impossible to be Japanese. The mei is etched on, or machined. It isn't cut or carved..not a chance.
None of the fittings are Japanese.
The sword isn't even debatable. It is 110% fake, Chinese production. The only way these could be Japanese is if they were alloy training/display swords and non-magnetic. Otherwise they would be illegal in Japan.
Challenge the guy....you are going to ship one to Japan. If it is rejected and refused import, he goes away. Otherwise you are going public. Let him try and sue you for defamation. He'll lose, and the court decision will be used against him to block him from shows.
Guys like him piss me off.

[Jacques D.]

If I am not mistaken, the torokusho should not leave Japan, the blade being unregistered. Its presence is therefore a big warning