Unusual naval kyugunto dress sword -possibly unique

[Beater]

Hi everyone,

 

I thought you might find this sword interesting. I often buy British swords from this seller, who rarely gets anything Japanese. I think his hypothesis as to the likely reason for this having a British-made blade is quite plausible but I really don’t know. Certainly looks authentic enough and, like he says, it may be unique? I’m not in the market for it so thought I’d share here in case someone else fancies a go.

 

https://www.greatscottantiques.com/en-GB/antique-swords/Japanese-naval-officer-s-dress-sword-/prod_11604#.Y4HheC-nz4A

 

Regards,

Kevin.

[lonely panet]

its 100% fake repo junk,  there for making the seller unreliable at best,  shonbky at best

[Brian]

Well, the blade is real. So are you saying the fittings are fantasy items and were mated with an old British blade Hamish?
 

[vajo]

Maybe some kind of collecting stuff? 

That sword looks terrible cheap.

[lonely panet]

  On 11/26/2022 at 10:27 AM, Brian said:

Well, the blade is real. So are you saying the fittings are fantasy items and were mated with an old British blade Hamish?
 

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Find me a straight naval sword EVER. its all suspect s**t

[Brian]

Blade could come from any of a number of British swords. I have a few with that blade. Naval? try 1827 Pattern. Non Naval? 1822, 1892, 1995 Patterns...many others.
No..I do think this is a private purchase sword or blade, modified.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Agree with Hamish, it's a poor replica in all aspects. Compare against the quality of an original below, it becomes obvious very quickly.

 

https://www.shigure-militaria.com/blank/excellent-condition-shark-skin-ww2-imperial-Japanese-navy-officer-saber

 

 

 

[Geraint]

Dear All.

 

While agreeing that the sword in question is junk I would simply point out that the current RN  officers sword is straight, having recently bought one for my son.  https://pooleysword.com/en/Royal_Navy_Officers'_Sword  Still the 1827 pattern I believe.

 

Or are we perhaps just focussing on IJN swords?

 

All the best.

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

@Beater

 

Good to 'see' you again, my friend!!!  Hope all is well.

 

After seeing Geraint's post, I see the similarities.  Added to the straight blade, I see the wire handle wrap is almost horizontal on both, compared to a Japanese wrap that is more spiral.  There is oxidation in nooks and crannies that could support some age.  All aspects are quite low in quality and skill, so whomever made it, wasn't very good at the craft, whether back then or later.

[Brian]

They were usually bought privately, and you would get whatever sword you paid for. You would go to an Army and Navy store and place your order for your sword and uniform and whatever else you would need. Or they would have items in stock. Sword makers made for various stores, and the patterns were acid etched. Quality was all over the place, as we set designs. Seems as long as it was "close enough" you were ok. Seen swords with amazing detail, and those with very poor and cheap details. Much like some German NCO swords. Some plain, some engraved.
Officers could choose to have their name etched, logos, floral work etc etc. Or not.
Don't know about the fittings here. But the blade is typical.

[lonely panet]

  On 11/26/2022 at 11:49 AM, lonely panet said:

Find me a straight naval sword EVER. its all suspect s**t

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this post is only in referance to Japanese swords,  my knowledge outside of Japanese swords  is non existant 

[Beater]

Thank you for your replies, as I said at the outset, “I really don’t know” but the seller has, in my experience, always been trustworthy and I’m sure would be devastated, if the doubters are correct.

I’m sure you will be aware that British sword makers certainly did make swords for the Japanese, so that concept at least, sits easy with me, although I am not saying this one is (or indeed, is not) correct. Here’s another example of a British made sword for the Japanese market…

https://www.antique-swords.com/Wilkinson-Sword-Japanese-Civil-War.html

Military swords are not my area of collecting and I bow to the more knowledgable here. I know there are many who revel in the study of the minutia of tiny stamps, manufacturers marks found on fittings etc and I posted this to invite comment and opinions from which we may all learn. 
 

Nice swords John. I think you may be missing the point though…the ones you show are, without doubt, genuine home-grown swords. This one purports to be one made in Britain. Of course it isn’t identical; a one-off could never achieve the detail / attributes of those made in Japan where they had tooling and moulds to produce consistent parts.
 

Bruce - all good here thanks mate. Agreed, the quality doesn’t compare but not bad if it is a one-off, in which a British naval tailor has done their best to fulfil an order, perhaps only having had the opportunity to view another example and make drawings? I too see the signs of verdigris / age and also wear to the brass gilding but I guess it’s possible to fake this, if you could knock up a sword like this?

 

The blade is of British origin and as far as I know, Fisher & Hart were outfitters, not sword cutlers. Military outfitters, such as them, obtained the swords they sold from one of the established cutlers (Wilkinson, Mole, Pillen, Reeves etc). Brian has listed some British sword patterns and whilst being of fairly typical form, it does not precisely follow any of the usual patterns, so to me anyway, very much looks like a one-off.
 

If this sword is fake, 100% s**t and shonky, as has been suggested, has anyone seen another? Surely the person responsible for this creation would not go to such lengths to make just one. The Chinese and Pakistani copies of NCO swords are ubiquitous, so where are its brothers? I have certainly not seen anything quite like it before and for me, the jury is still out and therefore repeat - I really don’t know.

 

Kevin.

 

 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 11/30/2022 at 9:54 AM, Beater said:

has anyone seen another? Surely the person responsible for this creation would not go to such lengths to make just one. The Chinese and Pakistani copies of NCO swords are ubiquitous, so where are its brothers? I have certainly not seen anything quite like it before and for me, the jury is still out and therefore repeat - I really don’t know.

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An interesting observation!  All evidence weighed, I'd lean toward your one-off theory.  But it will certainly remain a definite "unknown" or a for sure "possible"!