samurai sword 1450-1550 a.d.

[snatch13]

hi everyone.i'm brand new to the forum.maybe some of you guys could give me some assistance.in the event of my uncles death,i have acquired a samurai sword that was brought back from WWII by my grandfather.he pulled it out of the belly of a high ranking Japanese officer who committed ritual suicide.i realize some people might question the ethics and morality of this,but its just what happened back then with american g.i.'s.before my uncles death,he had the sword appraised and dated. it was dated between 1450-1550 a.d. and made by a bladesmith named yasu mitsu. the only paper i have to validate this is a letter giving ownership of the sword to me and signed by a notary public. i have no idea of where to begin looking for someone who could authenticate the sword and would appreciate any help than any of you could give me. i also realize this post is completely worthless without pics so i promise to post them ASAP.

[snatch13]

well for some reason i cant get the pics to load,but i will keep trying

[Mark Green]

Hiya Snatch :lol:

You may want to sign with your real name. Kinda a rule

Anyhoo, There were many Yasumitsu named smiths. Not a lot in the 1450-1550 range. If it is signed, then be sure to post some pics of that area. Pics of the whole blade, and a few close-ups of the steel. Place it next to a yard stick if you have one. tape measure will do.

And welcome, I hope we can help you some.

Mark G

[Mark Green]

Snatch, check your PM

[Mark Green]

Ok here are a few of Jeffs pics

Looks very interesting Bro. Nice tsuba too.

Will get more up as they come in.

Mark

[Mark Green]

One more

 

It looks right for the time period Jeff. Detailed pic would be great asap

I think some of the early Satsuma Naminohira group guys worked in that time period.

that would be very cool, and a wonderful gift!!

Or maybe one of the Bizen guys?

Your sword has been shortened from the tang (Nakago) This is called Suriage. Many very old swords were shortened in the 1600's due to sword length restrictions, and just because shorter swords were in style. I can see many nasty finger prints on your blade. These need to be cleaned off. Surf around, on this site and others linked above to learn how.

I'll crack some books.

Congrats Mark G

[Jean]

Nakago picture is a bit fuzzy, is this a shumeï?

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

  Quote

Many very old swords were shortened in the 1500's due to sword length restrictions

 

 

There were no sword lenght restrictions during Muromachi, they appeared (if i'm not wrong) in 1638. 84.5cm for a katana.

[AZPhil]

Student question here?

I know of the cutting test info being done in gold paint.

 

But what is the red painted Kanji? is this the Mei painted on?

[Lorenzo]

It is a red lacquer signature added as an attribution.

[DirkO]

Also called shu-mei as Jean pointed out

[Guido]

Shumei are traditionally done as Kantei-Mei on swords that are Ubu-Mumei. Kantei-Mei on Suriage Nakago are either Kinpun-Mei or Kinzôgan-Mei (the latter usually done by the Honami family).

[cspage]

Re. those fingerprints. I hope someone has clued Jeff into how to properly clean the blade, or if he hasn't the materials, to find someone who does. Would hate to see something unintentionally nasty done to that blade.

 

Colin

[Grey Doffin]

Here's a link to sword care and etiquette: http://www.nbthk-ab.org/Etiquette.htm

Grey

[snatch13]

thanks for all of the info guys.this sword has been setting in a safe for the last 27 years.i definatley want to to do all that i can to preserve it and fix any damage that may have already been done. i will take some more pics soon. i wish i had a better camera.there is some very fine kanji engraved on the tsuba but its proving very hard to show in the pics.i would love to get the sword polished and pappered but i have heard horror stories of blades going to Japan and never making it back. does anyone have an idea of what the value of this might be?

[snatch13]

after talking with my father i found out when my grandfather brought the sword back from Japan,the handle had the traditional wrap and mother of pearl menuki. i was also informed that my four uncles and my father would take the sword and chop down small trees with one swing.im sure this makes most of you cringe,as it does me,considering the possible value and the history and artistry put into it. i appologize to everyone,im more than a little rusty on my Japanese and sword terms. i'm pretty new to this but i appreciate everyones knowledge,patience,and help.

[Mark Green]

Jacques, Yes you are correct, I couldn't remember just off hand. My bad.

Jeff,

It will be very hard for anyone here to give you a value on your sword from a couple fuzzy pics.

I will say it does look very old. The paper you have may very likely be correct. However, there were many Smiths of this name in that time period. Which one, may make a big difference in the value. Plus, there is no way for any of us to know if the sword has no fatal flaws ,and so on. So, If there is a sword group near you, this could help.

A set of very good pics here, will likely get you started.

Oh, and there is no problem with sending old swords to Japan for polish and paper. Hundreds go every week, and come home safe and sound.

Mark G

[Gabriel L]

  snatch13 said:

...but i have heard horror stories of blades going to Japan and never making it back.

Without getting into the nitty gritty details, this is pretty much nonsense.

-GLL

[snatch13]

thats good to hear.but considering the value of some of these swords you can see how rumors and skepticism are started

[Jean]

  Quote

but i have heard horror stories of blades going to Japan and never making it back.

 

Good to hear that this Urban Legend has at last reached NMB

[stekemest]

  Quote

Shumei are traditionally done as Kantei-Mei on swords that are Ubu-Mumei. Kantei-Mei on Suriage Nakago are either Kinpun-Mei or Kinzôgan-Mei (the latter usually done by the Honami family).

 

Really?

I thought that shumei were also done on a suriage sword when the appraiser thought that it was never signed.

[reinhard]

  stekemest said:

I thought that shumei were also done on a suriage sword when the appraiser thought that it was never signed

 

You are wrong. Genuine Shu-mei are only to be found on ubu-mumei blades. Shu-mei on shortened blades are always fakes.

 

reinhard

[Mark Green]

Hi Gang,

reinhard has a good point.

And Stekemest, how on earth would an appraiser know if a shortened sword was ever signed or not?? Unless he was at the shortening.

I still think this sword has some great possibilities. Can't wait to see better pics!

Mark g

[stekemest]

Well, I quote from http://www.nihonto.ca/ratings.html :

 

"In some cases it is extended to suriage swords, if the opinion of the appraiser is that the piece was never signed to begin with (these attributed mei are sometimes done at the time of shortening, so the appraiser may have solid data about the original state of the nakago)."

 

I always considered Darcy Brockbank a very credible source of information. And I thought there were, for example, shumei-signed blades by Go Yoshihiro which are suriage as well.

 

Peter

[Guido]

Just to be on the safe side (my memory isn't anymore what it used to be ) I checked Nagayama, Kajihara, Tokuno and a few others: they all support what I wrote in my above post.

 

I've seen a few blades with Kinzôgan-Mei stating that the sword is shortened and was before signed XXX, but Shumei were exclusively done on Ubu-Mumei blades.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Go Yoshihiro blade, O-suriage and shu-mei.

 

 

Oshigata coming from Sano Etchu -Tô

 

[Guido]

I don't deny that (Ô) Suriage blades with Shumei *exist*. And I would be surprised if a Shumei on an extremely valuable sword was removed if the attribution is supported by other evidence. My statement, however, that it's against all conventions still stands - if you can name one serious (Japanese) source that says otherwise I'm only too glad to expand my knowledge.

[Jacques]

Hi,

  Guido Schiller said:

I don't deny that (Ô) Suriage blades with Shumei *exist*. And I would be surprised if a Shumei on an extremely valuable sword was removed if the attribution is supported by other evidence. My statement, however, that it's against all conventions still stands - if you can name one serious (Japanese) source that says otherwise I'm only too glad to expand my knowledge.

 

 

 

  Quote

You are wrong. Genuine Shu-mei are only to be found on ubu-mumei blades. Shu-mei on shortened blades are always fakes.

 

 

I was refering to that sentence

[nagamaki - Franco]

  reinhard said:

  stekemest said:

I thought that shumei were also done on a suriage sword when the appraiser thought that it was never signed

 

You are wrong. Genuine Shu-mei are only to be found on ubu-mumei blades. Shu-mei on shortened blades are always fakes.

 

reinhard

 

Sorry, Reinhard, but you are incorrect. Guido's statement where he used the word "traditionally" stands correct, yes, traditionally shu-mei are used as an indication of ubu never signed. But, and anyone who has been collecting swords long enough will learn this, when it comes to nihonto there will inevitably be valid exceptions to the rules, placing anyone using absolute words like 'only' and 'always' at risk of having to eat their own words. Valid shu mei are found on o-suriage swords. (further edit) Now, when shu mei are found on O suriage swords, it is believed that this particular sword was not originally signed, which in a sense still preserves the original intent of the shu mei. In a general sense one might ask, how would anyone really know that an o suriage sword was never originally signed, and this is a valid question.

 

Generally speaking, a shu mei, or any other such similar type attributions need to be approached with the same cynicism as a regular mei, that is until proven otherwise by the sword.

[Brian]

"Shu-mei on shortened blades are almost always fakes."

Fixed it for ya

Yes..I get what Reinhard was saying, and I think if there is one thing we have ALL learned on this forum, it is that there are exceptions to every rule. Point taken though.

 

Brian