nanban tsuba age?

[Guest nickn]

i bought this ,i guess, nanban tsuba yesterday it has lots of undercutting and a free floating ball in the boars eye

is it possible to date it?

[Guest nickn]

2

[Bugyotsuji]

The 'free floating ball' (nice!) is the dragon's fiery orb, the jewel for which they both fight.

 

Namban tsuba tended to be European in style at the beginning of Edo when they first started being made in Hirado and Nagasaki, but later they had more of a Chinese theme to them. (Quote from dictionary!)

 

Nice piccie here!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... longBi.jpg

[Guest nickn]

thanks piers

are they dateable?

[IanB]

Piers, Here I must disagree with you. There is nothing European at all about these tsuba. The style of decoration that involves a mass of tendrils occupied by dragons, tama etc is Chinese / Tibetan - see Stone's Glossary about Buddhist pen cases and Tibetan saddles. By chance I gave a talk at our last ToKen meeting on this very subject. I've deleted the pics now, but one of our members has a namban tsuba which originally had a square hole bordered by a raised rim. This has been extended by cutting top and bottom to take a Japanese tang. Originally it was fitted to a tau-kien, a kind of Chinese jitte with a sword-like hilt and a tsuba. How did it get to Japan? My guess has always been the Korean invasions - a bit of war loot worn by a Japanese to show he had been in the wars. This leads on nicely to those namban tsuba with elongated rectangular seppa dai decorated with waves or bars and the like. A Japanese craftsman would know this decoration would be hidden by the seppa, as would the tendrils to either side. However, on a Chinese dao, it would be visible since those swords have no seppa, the tsuba just resting on the machi. Some of this type have hitsu ana. Were they made in Japan or China? In some cases they appear to have been cut into the design and the rims added. In other cases it is almost as if a Chinese agent in Japan, who ordered them from his Chinese suppliers, specified hitsu ana, some of which just float amid the tendrils. Note how most of these tsuba are rather small for wakizashi. Had they been made in Japan I would have expected an equal number of katana size as well. My talk involved linking this trade to that of sawasa for the Dutch. This trade included smallswords with hilts that have exactly the same tendrils and dragons. Finally we get tsuba with regular seppa dai like that here, and by this time I suspect they are being made in Japan in that style. Its still a bit of a mystery area, but I am sure China is the key to this.

Ian Bottomley

[Guest nickn]

hello ian

when do you think the Japanese started making tsubain this style?

nick

[Bugyotsuji]

Love to hear this kind of stuff, Ian. No problems at all for me. I had just had a quick look in a Japanese Super Daijirin dictionary (we all know for example how reliable the E-J and J-E dics can be) and simply quoted the received knowledge. Just rechecked to make sure I was not hallucinating or making things up, and it does say that the very first ones had Western/European motifs. Never having seen such, I was interested in the idea anyway. Always good to take everything with a pinch of salt, and to have the frontiers tested. What you describe makes a lot of sense historically and geographically. :|

[IanB]

Nick, Although I am almost old enough, memory fades . Seriously, it has to be the 1590's -the Korean invasions, or the waka. Let us say the start of the Tokugawa era as a reasonable date.

Ian

[docliss]

To follow Ian’s very knowledgeable comments on the Chinese influence upon the Namban group of Japanese sword guards …

 

Trade records describe crude and symmetrical guards with purely Chinese designs as arriving in Japan from China around 1600 (Wada (1913), Hompō Sōken Kinkō Ryakushu, p. 90). At this time, Japan was enjoying a brief respite during several centuries of continuous civil war, and Zen Buddhism was becoming increasingly influential. The status of metalworking artists increased, and their work adopted a pictorial style of design with an increasing decorative use of the soft metal alloys. Japan was thus highly receptive to these highly innovative designs from China.

 

Local artists, especially in Nagasaki, Hirato, Hakaka, Kyōto and Aizu, extensively copied these imported tsuba, and it is stated that ‘these designs were welcomed by the public, which liked novelties, and there is the impression that they suddenly overwhelmed a generation’ (Homma and Satō (1935-36), Nihon Tō Kōza: vol. VI, Kodōgu, part I, p. 179). As a result of these activities, domestically made copies of these Chinese guards became very numerous. But this period of nationwide popularity is now considered to have reached a peak as late as the end of the 18th and the early 19th centuries, which is probably the date of this tsuba's manufacture.

 

John L.

[reinhard]

Piers and Ian are probably both right. Overall design of most Namban Tsuba is most certainly of Chinese origin in the first place, but some Namban tsuba were made under Western influence without doubt. This appears to be only logical. Europeans, and everything that came with them, made a tremendous impact on Nippon during Azuchi-Momoyama period. There is no reason to believe, Japanese craftsmen just ignored it. Attachment shows two Namban tsuba, which seem to be made out of parrying guards taken from western swords. This leads me to the question: What does "Namban tsuba" actually mean ? Maybe there is a general misunderstanding?

 

reinhard

[Ford Hallam]

Some great information coming together here

 

just to add to Reinhard's point re; European influence on tsuba here a nice example from the R B Caldwell collection.

 

Note the letters "VOC" that appears on this one as well as the example Reinhard posted. This refers to the "Vrie Oostindische Companie", the Dutch East India Company. It was this company that in fact created the first European settlements here at the Cape, as refuelling stations for ship en route to the east. I still have daydreams of finding some swords of fittings that got left here by some seafarer on his way home from "The Japans"...so far not a sausage though.

 

 

 

and this one shows very clear European influence. It's from the Henri D Rosin Collection and the square modification in the nakago ana is described as being made to allow the fitting to a European rapier. This may be what those odd horizontal slots are we occasionally see over nakago ana.

 

[IanB]

All, These are stunning examples but look closely. The first tsuba posted by Reinhard looks superficially like a shell-guard from a small-sword until you examine the inhabitants of the scrollwork - dragons! Not a European motif but a Chinese or Japanese one. Can I see a stylised bat at the base of that tsuba? This one was made in the Far East using some European motifs like the VOC monogram. The second however is, I think, a genuine shell-guard inhabited by nudes and mythological birds as it should be. Note the different treatment of the tendrils. The Europeans were content to just drill holes and chisel the metal so that the appear to pass under and over each other. The Orientals actually took much more care to make them look as if they really do cross each other - and we know they actually undercut the odd one on either side.

The tsuba Ford illustrates is Very interesting. Again we have dragons and the carefully cut tendrils, but how many namban tsuba were done in a copper alloy? I don't think I have ever seen one before. I'm also curious about the symbols above and below the nakago ana - crosses in circles with dots in the angles - what inspired them? They are ringing bells but nothing is coming through at the moment - need much more coffee.

Ford, what you don't want is a genuine VOC sword. A gent about a mile from me has one, issued in Amsterdam about 1650. Wretched thing but quite rare. The Armouries has a Malayan spear with the blade made from a similar VOC sword. They are a bit like a naval cutlass but have the monogram on the blade and a letter to indicate the port of issue.

Ian

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Ian,

 

the copper alloy tsuba is in my opinion, a variety of sentoku. Sort of intermediate brass~bronze. I think the inclusion of the VOC cypher proves a European influence and I believe there has been the suggestion that the "drawer handles" are inspired by European sword hilts of the time. You'd be a far better judge of that though.

 

There's quite a decent collection of 17th cent. VOC arms held at the castle here in Cape Town. The general feeling is of very functional hardware although there are some finer examples and all in very good condition too. I occasionally go for a wander through the old rooms there just to absorb the atmosphere and savour the history and feel of all that aged wood and metal.

[docliss]

Nick’s postings do, somehow, seem to stimulate discussion!

 

Reinhard requests a definition of the label ‘Namban tsuba’, and this question was answered by Ogawa when he proposed that “Those tsuba that are today called Namban (literally ‘southern barbarian’) appear to have been produced in China or by the Dutch East India Company in India and imported from the end of the 16th century. The category also includes reproductions of these imported pieces, later made in Japan”. (Ogawa (1987). Japanese Swords and Sword Furniture in the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, no. 353, pp. 352 and 353.)

 

The two auriculate tsuba that Reinhard posts are not, I believe, ‘made out of parrying guards taken from Western swords’, but are Namban tsuba by the above definition. Such guards are very constant in form, comprising two decorative lateral plates separated by a central, plain biconcave plate that includes the seppa-dai, and are probably influenced by the counter-guard that appeared on European swords from the early 17th century. These auriculate guards commonly have at their upper and lower ends a taotie, and their design may incorporate ‘swan-neck drawer handles’ — another demonstration of a European influence.

 

Where a kebori, VOC logo features on the seppa-dai and would be hidden when the guard is mounted, as in Ford’s image, this is probably a ‘trade mark’ indicating its manufacture by the Dutch East India Company. But where this is fully incorporated into the design, as in Reinhard’s first image, this may merely represent the incorporation of a commonly seen logo into the design.

 

The ita-tsuba illustrated by Ford is not a Namban tsuba, but rather a Hizen one demonstrating a strong namban influence.

 

The presence of rectangular nakago-ana remains enigmatic, but I would not entirely discount the possibility that later workers, manufacturing tsuba as shiiromono that would requite alteration of the nakago-hitsu before mounting, found such alteratation easier to carry out on a rectangular opening rather than on the conventional, triangular one.

 

John L.

[Brian]

Outstanding discussion chaps!

Please do continue it, I am learning a lot.

Dr L...I am embarassed to admit that I don't yet have your book on these tsuba, but it is high up on my "next to purchase" list. Amazing how these tsuba and their link to the VOC seem to connect Europe, India, South Africa and the Far East.

 

Brian

[IanB]

All, Fully agree that the basic inspiration of these guards is based on small-sword hilts, but I still think Reinhard's second one is a genuine European hilt. Look how the cutting of the hitsu ana has so weakened it that it has broken. It was clearly totally symmetrical and the conversion has simple cut through the deign. Note also how the nakago ana has been extended top and bottom, again cutting away part of the design. If you look carefully, what is left indicated that the original tang was approximately square.

I think the VOC monogram is nothing more than a 'foreign' design element, in the same way that the leather used by Louis Vuitton is decorated with pseudo kamon. In earlier times crucifixes and sacred monograms were used in the same way, but by the time these were being made, that was a definite NO NO but VOC was probably safe enough.

Ian

[Guest nickn]

a slightly better perhaps earlier tsuba

[Chriso]

This thread it's giving me quite a lot to think about. I must admit that I'm rather taken with Nanban Tsuba and i've found that the reappraisal by Dr John Lissenden is a great read (pic below - about $80au) although it is his own version of events and goes against Helen Gunsaulus in 'Japanese Sword Mounts' (available for download from the NMB list).

 

If we are into show and tell, I've added a couple of pics of my Nanban, and would be happy for any comment. By the way is anyone aware of any other publications on Nanban????

 

Cheers Chris O

[reinhard]

The two auriculate tsuba that Reinhard posts

 

These two tsuba were taken from: Kanzan Token Koza, vol. 5, page 163.

 

Very much recommended (all six volumes)

 

reinhard

[docliss]

Thank you, Chris, for your kind comments. The only recent publication that I know of about this group is in Japanese, and is quite difficult to track down. It is:

 

Shigeta, Yoshimura. Namban Tsuba: Akogane no Desain, Tokyo, 1998.

 

Both of the tsuba that you posted demonstrate all of the defining characteristics of the group, and both are quite good examples of C18-C19 work — the second especially so, with its excellent quality of undercutting and its later, added, kozuka-hitsu. It is also unusual to see two distinct diaper designs on the seppa-dai.

 

Regards, John L.

[reinhard]

The first tsuba posted by Reinhard looks superficially like a shell-guard from a small-sword until you examine the inhabitants of the scrollwork - dragons! Not a European motif but a Chinese or Japanese one. Can I see a stylised bat at the base of that tsuba? moment - need much more coffee.Ian

 

Hello Ian,

 

Coffein level satiated? - I agree with you. The dragon design sukashi was definitely made in Far-East, but there are some elements, which make me believe it was made from a European guard. First are the four freakish faces on the rim, which, in this particular example, look more European in design and craftsmanship to me; also the fact, that the bottom one is upside down. This is quite contrary to Japanese conception of tsuba. The most important indicators to me are seppa-dai and nakago-ana. Looking very closely, the carvings on the seppa-dai don't really match the surrounding sukashi. It seems the carver of sukashi tried to create connexions but didn't fully succeed. The nakago-ana was changed from a nearly rectangular one into nakago shape. Some of these features are also somewhat different from the examples Chris posted. Those appear to be made tsuba from the beginning. - This is just an amateur's notion, but I suspect the dragon sukashi to be a later addition on a Western guard.

 

These two tsuba are nice touchstones to check somebody's, or your own, perception with. Trained to see things from a Western point of view, one will see the deviations from Western guards first. A Japanese viewer will probably be most irritated about deviations from what he expects to see in "proper" tsuba.

 

reinhard

[Bugyotsuji]

On the book cover Tsuba above are square slots, bringing our two threads together.

[docliss]

I cannot agree with Reinhard that to depict the taotie faces upside down is ‘quite contrary to [the] Japanese conception of tsuba’. Yoshimura Shigeta illustrates five such tsuba of the auriculate type on pp. 63-67 of his book, and upon every one of these this is a constantly recurring feature.

 

John L.

[Curran]

Shigeta, Yoshimura. Namban Tsuba: Akogane no Desain, Tokyo, 1998.

 

Good book.

I agree with Dr. L's statement, "Yoshimura Shigeta illustrates five such tsuba of the auriculate type on pp. 63-67 of his book, and upon every one of these this is a constantly recurring feature." I've been glad to own a very good example illustrated on page 64.

 

Mr. Reinhart may raise the issue of whether or not these were made in Japan. I believe a fair number are, though the design may have originated elsewhere along the trade routes. Just as Plataresque architecture made it from Spain to Macau church (existing still) and into Japan (destroyed long ago). The Macau one contrasts from spanish examples in that it shows considerable chinese influence.

 

I've seen several examples of the auriculated tsuba on page 64. They've ranged from crude ones that seem chinese manufactured, to some rather fine ones with considerable more detail. Iron differs from example to example. Someone gave mine a rather fine lobed shakudo mimi.

 

As an aside, the Shigeta Namban book also touches on "Christian/Kuristian" tsuba from pages 69-76.

 

Curran

[reinhard]

I cannot agree with Reinhard that to depict the taotie faces upside down is ‘quite contrary to [the] Japanese conception of tsuba’. Yoshimura Shigeta illustrates five such tsuba of the auriculate type on pp. 63-67 of his book, and upon every one of these this is a constantly recurring feature.John L.

 

Sorry for not making myself clear. What I meant was: Depicting objects upside down on tsuba is a no-go before and after namban(-style) tsuba. Considering the purpose of tsuba, this is only logical. I agree though, that this alone is no proof for a tsuba of not being of Japanese origin within the borders of namban-style.

 

By raising the question what "namban" tsuba actually means, I didn't ask for textbook explanation. It was meant to be a kick-start for collecting ideas. This subject has been neglected by most scholars and I'm wondering, if there might be a general misunderstanding. Maybe the term "namban tsuba" doesn't mean the same thing today what it meant four hundred years ago.

 

reinhard

[Bazza]

This thread it's giving me quite a lot to think about. I must admit that I'm rather taken with Nanban Tsuba and i've found that the reappraisal by Dr John Lissenden is a great read (pic below - about $80au) although it is his own version of events and goes against Helen Gunsaulus in 'Japanese Sword Mounts' (available for download from the NMB list).

 

If we are into show and tell, I've added a couple of pics of my Nanban, and would be happy for any comment. By the way is anyone aware of any other publications on Nanban????

 

Cheers Chris O

Reading this thread I realise how little I know about Namban tsuba - but then, I'm a "blade man'!! For "SHOW AND TELL" I've put two images of my one and only Namban tsuba below. It is 83mm high x 75mm wide x 6.5mm thick. In the first NBTHK Shinsa in the USA it was given a Tokubetsu Kicho paper and noted (if my memory of 40-ish years ago serves me correctly) as 17th century. A polisher from Japan looked at it a few years ago and said "A real one!" He knew what "Namban" meant to him, but in the line of a comment above, does it relate to what Namban meant in the early Edo period?? This tsuba is particularly interesting I feel because the front is convex. The seppa dai and the dragons and scroll work are in a flat plane, but the rim containing the two dragons and scroll work is about 1mm below the flat plane, and the inside bound of the outer border beading is about 2mm below the flat. The gilt plate on the front seppai dai is loose and when removed reveals an abstract cloud pattern sunk below the flat plane by the thickness of the gilt plate, suggesting this was an original design feature? Given the erudite comments here about "the artist's intention" I am bereft of any comments and look forward to the collective opinion on this tsuba.

 

On Chriso's question "is anyone aware of any other publications on Nanban????" I have not seen any discussion on the merits of Boxer's article in the Transactions of the Japan Society, London. The only comment I recall without reading it all again is that a beaded rim indicates an earlier piece. Anyone??

 

Regards,

Barry Thomas.

[docliss]

Barry’s tsuba is, indeed, a very fine example of this group. At 85 x 75 mm in size, it falls just inside the possible katana range and, again, the kozuka-hitsu is a later modification. The quality of both the undercutting and the gilding are both of a very high standard, and I love the manner in which the gilding on the rim has differentially worn away. The gold plate on the seppa-dai is a very unusual feature. The tsuba clearly falls within our current definition of the Namban group.

 

But C17? The concavo-convex profile that Barry describes indicates to me a European influence and a possibly rather later date of manufacture.

 

The article by Boxer that Barry mentions (Boxer, C.R. “European Influences on Japanese Sword Fittings: 1543-1853” in Transactions and Proceedings of the Japan Society of London, vol. 28, 1930-31) is interesting in that it proposed an impractical sub-division of the Namban group into three sections. Those tsuba made in 1542-1639, during the Portuguese influence, were to be labelled ‘Namban’; those deriving their inspiration from Dutch designs would be labelled ‘Komo’; and those in the Chinese style ‘Canton’. But even Boxer was forced to admit the difficulty in distinguishing between these three sub-divisions, and his article is mired in the impractical group definition of his time being ‘any tsuba that demonstrated a foreign influence’.

 

I cannot agree with him that a beaded (chrysanthemoid) rim indicates an earlier date of manufacture. One can only assume that it represents a Japanese modification of the earlier Chinese imports, and seems to me to be a later, rather than an earlier, characteristic.

 

Talking of these imports, they seem to be incredibly rare — even Kitamura, the director of the Namban Bunka-kan in Osaka-shi, acknowledges that there is no example of such tuba in this collection (Personal Communication, 1998). But one such may be no 354, p. 354 of Ogawa’s Japanese Swords and Sword Furniture in the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston.

 

John L.

[Bugyotsuji]

Forgive the jumping on the wagon here, but I've just got to ask. Some time ago, Barry asked me to post hi-res pics of this Namban tsuba, (the only one I have, likewise) and I did, but never found out why.

 

It measures about 7.3 cm vertically and 6.9 cm across. I know nothing about it, except that I bought it on impulse, and even now have a love/hate relationship with it. Any comments, guesses welcome. Docliss mentions the seppa dai being gilded as unusual?

 

[Guest nickn]

here`s one with a ho bird motif

[docliss]

Dear Piers

 

From the bandwagon, so as to speak, I was not stating that gilded seppa-dai are unusual, but rather commenting upon the removable gold cover on Barry’s tsuba. Decorative seppa-dai are obviously one of the defining characteristics of this group of tsuba, and what I call ‘fortification’ designs, such as this, with gold, nunome-zōgan decoration, are not uncommon. Clearly this decoration would have worn away very rapidly after mounting, however.

 

Your tsuba, with its chrysanthemoid rim, profuse gilding and contemporaneous ryō-hitsu, does not appear to have the same, high quality that is apparent on Barry’s tsuba, with its excellent undercutting — am I correct in this, or is it just not so visible in your photograph? It is, I suspect, rather later in date — probably late C18.

 

Regards, John L.