a bit of a puzzle for tsubaphiles

[Ford Hallam]

This rather unusual tsuba belongs to Bob Morrison. I'm posting this image here, with his permission, because I think it might make a nice puzzle for those of you who enjoy digging up some of the more obscure references in Japanese art.

 

So, the question is; what is the subject of the design and what 2 plants, or trees, are alluded to?

 

As an extra bonus question; what is that strange horizontal slot across the nakago ana? Anyone suggesting a hidden Christian sign will be shot and I should add, this is definitely not a modern cast copy

 

 

[Gunome]

Hello

 

Thanks for this unusual tsuba.

 

Does it could be an insect partern ? butterfly, fly or bee ?

 

  Quote

what is that strange horizontal slot across the nakago ana? Anyone suggesting a hidden Christian sign will be shot

 

I haven't the answere, but another question : I saw this kinds of slot on some fuchi's nakago ana. Is it for the same purpose ?

One time I read it is for polearm koshirae ... but I have doubts about this explanation

 

Sébastien

[Bugyotsuji]

Something to do with...

  Reveal hidden contents

Kamon/Genji-ko? Takegawa(Chikusen?) & Shingi-bashira? No idea how to read them...Ah, thanks Barry below, Makibashira!

[Rich T]

What a fantastic tsuba. I love this. My first thought for use is a Yari or Naginata. The nakago ana however make it obvious it's been mounted on a sword. The slot is a tad intruiging.

 

As to the theme, is my guess of Big Ears out of the question ?????

 

Seriously though. I am wondering if these are drawer handles and key's. Something along the lines of this.

 

 

I have a feeling of Momoyama period, or there about. And the iron looks to be reminiscent of Ko Shoami, or Owari. Dark, rich and glossy. Well that's my initial take.

 

A great little puzzle.

 

Rich

[Lorenzo]

Aren't those two genji mon? The number 4, top row from the left, and number 2 second row from the left

 

http://www.Japanese-incense.com/genji-mon2.jpg

[Michael 101]

I agree (not with the ears but you never know) Genji mon is also my view on this subject.

 

Genji were associated with the game of Kodo which was fasionable amoung the warrior ellite during the 15th and 16th centuries. I recall an explanation on tsuba as being a warriors wistful nostalgia for the arts of peace over warefare.

 

The cut accross the nakago ana would be to accomodate a raised sword or yari nakago.

 

Best regards

Michael

[Bazza]

  Michael 101 said:

I agree (not with the ears but you never know) Genji mon is also my view on this subject.

 

Genji were associated with the game of Kodo which was fasionable amoung the warrior ellite during the 15th and 16th centuries. I recall an explanation on tsuba as being a warriors wistful nostalgia for the arts of peace over warefare.

 

The cut accross the nakago ana would be to accomodate a raised sword or yari nakago.

 

Best regards

Michael

Genji Mon go back to the Heian Period

 

http://www.viewingjapaneseprints.net/te ... imon7.html

QUOTE "Genji crests (genji-mon) or Genji incense (genji-kô) were emblems associated with the 54 chapters of the Genji monogatari ("The Tale of Genji"), written by Murasaki Shikibu in the first quarter of the eleventh century" END QUOTE.

 

Regards,

Barry Thomas.

[Ford Hallam]

Boy! you chaps are good :D

 

...so you've identified the shell game from the "listening to Incense" pastime and it's association with the Heian period aristocracy.

 

You've noted the connection of the "mon" (don't believe they are in this instance though) to the Genji and Barry hits atari with the link to the Chapters of the Genjimonogatari (The tale of Prince Genji).

 

The symbol on the left refers to Chapter 44, Bamboo River and the other to chapter 31, Cypress Pillar.

 

The game of Genji-Koh involved the players "listening" to incense. It's said one doesn't smell the stuff but rather "listen to it"

5 different types of incense were used, and 5 packets of each were prepared giving 25 individual packets. The master of ceremonies shuffled them and selected 5 at random. The players then tied to identify them and recored their answers by means of short horizontal and vertical strokes marked on paper. 52 different patterns are possible using 5 of the 25 samples.

These correspond to specific chapters of the book. Chapter 1 isn't used as such, there are in fact 53 chapters...how inconvenient.

 

The signs can be seen to comprise essentially 5 vertical lines, however short. The first line on the left is the first scent that is smelled ( listened to), the second the second scent and so on. Should any of the scents repeat they are then linked by a vertical line that joins them. So for example, if each packet contained a different sample then you'd have only 5 vertical lines, which is chapter 2.

 

Chapter 31, The Cypress Pillar,( the one on the right) indicates that the first and last scents were the same, the second and fourth were the same and the third was different from the rest.

 

Chapter 44, Bamboo River, is almost the same but the three in the middle were all the same.

 

What this actually may mean on this guard is anyone's guess....as is that odd slot across the nakago anna. Sorry, I don't have a clue about that....I was hoping one of you might figure it out

[cspage]

With a seppa on each face of the tsuba, those slots would be tidy little places to keep small symbolic chunks of incense, in keeping with the theme of the tsuba. That's what I would do with them given no other options. Crazy maybe, but then, who isn't.

 

Colin

[Hermes]

Looks like Charles Chaplin's bowtie to me and those horizontal slots were made so it can spin like a propeller no matter which way Charlie spins it!

 

Could those slots be for a locking device, like some sword canes have?

[Mark Green]

Hi Gang,

My bet would be that this was mounted on a large Yari. I have seen a few tsuba cut like this before, and all were on Yari.

Mark G

[Bugyotsuji]

  cspage said:

With a seppa on each face of the tsuba, those slots would be tidy little places to keep small symbolic chunks of incense, in keeping with the theme of the tsuba. That's what I would do with them given no other options. Crazy maybe, but then, who isn't.

 

Colin

The answer to your suggestion may be found in trace quantity on the walls of the cavities, unless the incense was wrapped up in three layers of paper.

 

One more possibility presents itself here. Swords sometimes had hidden compartments for little blobs of Mame-Ita-gin or Mame-kin, which could be exchanged for cash in times of need. With his gold hidden in the tsuba, even if the saya was lost, a samurai would not lose grip of his sword unless his spirit had passed on. (As an adjunct to this, I wonder if they ever took out the gold filling from the Hitsu-ana in times of need?)

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Piers,

 

I was asked once, "is there any money in Tsuba?" as in, is dealing with them a viable business.

 

I reckon the one certainly answers that question. :D

 

[Bugyotsuji]

  Ford Hallam said:

Hi Piers,

 

I was asked once, "is there any money in Tsuba?" as in, is dealing with them a viable business.

 

I reckon the one certainly answers that question. :D

 

[attachment=0]tsuba.png[/attachment]

 

Oh, wow!!! 2 Ichi-bu (Ni-bu?) bankin?

 

Well, then it is not such an alien concept! :lol:

[Guido]

[broken record mode] In all of my years of collecting I've never seen [/broken record mode] a Yari with a Tsuba (except for Kikuchi-Yari and Naginata) although they sometimes have crossbars, Hadome. Both Kikuchi-Yari and Naginata wouldn't need the modification shown in the Tsuba Ford posted. I've seen the horizontal slots occasionally, and really would like to know why they are there. No offense, but the theories presented so far don't really convince me.

[Bugyotsuji]

Add this to your memory banks, Guido.

[Guido]

  Bugyotsuji said:

Add this to your memory banks, Guido.

Well, Piers, I still don't see a Yari with a Tsuba just a cut-down Yari mounted as a Tantô. And looking at the size of the cut-outs in the Seppa and Tsuba, it even becomes more unlikely that the narrow slots in the Tsuba presented by Ford (and others I've seen) would accomodate the Nakago of a Yari.

[Bugyotsuji]

Hehehe... point taken.

 

My brain is still refusing to give up on the cross-slots puzzle above. I hope Ford gives me the tsuba for my efforts anyway!

[DirkO]

Ford,

 

I'm not exactly a tsubaphyle, but nevertheless intrigued by the nakago-ana. Could you give us some dimensions of the tsuba and it's ana please ? Maybe that will give us some clues as to it's purpose...

[Mark Green]

Guido, Yes!! I have never seen a Yari, with a Tsuba as well. All have been Yari/tanto conversions. And all these tsuba, looked very much like Fords. At least, the ana.

In fact, I think this Tsuba would be a great one for such a great nasty weapon, with some good sexy look. Most I have seen, this way, were plain solid, or close to solid, tsuba. A nice sukashi would look great.

I think I may just have to do that. I wonder where I could find a cheep tsuba to convert

I don't think I could cut any of my yari nakago though. They would all have a very long tsuka

But, if your Yari already has a very short nakago.

It is a very cool looking weapon. I'm not sure how many were used that way, in the day.

You do see a good many mounted this way. All I have seen have been modern mounted conversions, I think. Like the one above.

Mark G

[Ford Hallam]

sorry I can't offer dimensions and measurements, Dirk.

 

As I mentioned at the start of the thread, this isn't mine. It belongs to Bob Morrison. I'm pleased it's stimulating such thought though....we may eventually figure out the "mystery of the little slot" :D

[Bugyotsuji]

  Mark Green said:

Guido, Yes!! I have never seen a Yari, with a Tsuba as well. All have been Yari/tanto conversions. But, if your Yari already has a very short nakago.

It is a very cool looking weapon. I'm not sure how many were used that way, in the day. You do see a good many mounted this way. All I have seen have been modern mounted conversions, I think. Like the one above.

Mark G

 

Hi Mark. There are modern versions, but the one above was done in late Edo; the saya Koikuchi is cut specifically for this yari, as too the seppa and tsuba. Sword-related Japanese people I have shown it to have been generally surprised by both its relative rarity, and genuine nature.

 

Back to the tsuba in question, the holes may have been cut later to incorporate something, for example a blade with a high shinogi that needed special side pads to hold firmly. A square cut for special copper, gold sekigane? (Really struggling here...)

[Ford Hallam]

I just posted this tsuba on another thread re; Namban tsuba. This one clearly shows Europeans, apparently Portuguese or Spaniards. What caught my eye was the square hole that modifies the usual nakago ana shape. This was described as being made so to allow the fitting to a European rapier. I believe Iberian types of Rapier at that time had a square or rectangular cross section tang.

 

Could these mysterious slots have been made to allow the guard to be "multi-cultural" ? To allow them to be mounted on both Nihonto and European swords. A clever way of increasing the tsuba vendors potential market, or a sneaky way to convince native Samurai that these guards were in fact exotic imports.

 

[Jean]

In my youth I was interested by rapière, here is from French Wikipedia a small survey of "rapière à tazza" with a few pictures :

 

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapi%C3%A8re

 

Thaugh the blade is almond section shaped, the part which is going through the hand Guard is rectangle shaped

[DirkO]

I'm having problems with the cutout not being symmetrical, it seems to slant from right to left or is this just me ? This would leave something asymmetrical going through, so not much to choose from. Some kind of locking mechanism ? Or maybe a teppo disguised as tanto with fittings to go with it ?

[Mark Green]

AHHH.

I think we may be on to something here. Rapier tangs of the time, were indeed mostly rectangles. And this looks very much like some of the guards of the era.

Could be. I think that is more likely, then the Yari/tanto thing.

 

 

Piers, I never would have guessed that about that yari/tanto. I knew it looked well done. but Edo. That is great, and like said rare. I have seen a few with Habaki.

Maybe we should start a new thread, and see how many Yari/tanto come out of the woodwork? I have one.

Mark G

[Bugyotsuji]

Talking with a Japanese friend today I mentioned these two slots and he immediately said Kakuri Kurishitan. I said, nope, ...Ford said that that was the one thing we are not allowed to say. He looked astonished and said "Who's Ford? Everyone knows it's a hidden cross." Then I thought to myself, why do we have to swallow that very first restriction put upon us. Why, Ford, why? :lol:

 

Then looking at the Namban ship tsuba on the cover of the book posted over on the Namban Tsuba thread, the Nakago ana suddenly looked like a ship, and the cut away sections looked like the sail of the ship. Hmmm... then I thought that when it comes to proscribed things, the Japanese love to have a second or even a third explanation lined up for times of trouble. Everything in Korakuen Pleasure Gardens for example can be said to be for beauty etc., but there is often a hidden military meaning behind almost all of it.

 

 

(Mark, sure let's start a different thread! I saw another one today, BTW, but the koshirae was much poorer quality.)

[Bazza]

  Mark Green said:

Piers, I never would have guessed that about that yari/tanto. I knew it looked well done. but Edo. That is great, and like said rare. I have seen a few with Habaki.

Maybe we should start a new thread, and see how many Yari/tanto come out of the woodwork? I have one.

Mark G

Mark, Piers, All,

I once had a sankaku yari mounted as an aikuchi tanto, the blade being only 4 or so inches long. The nakago had been cut, of course, but the mei SHIMOSAKA was still evident. Now, it is true that I have never seen another one (maybe one other??). Edo?? Whilst the yari itself was no doubt old, the aikuchi tanto koshirae I thought was perhaps Meiji although of course it could have been late Edo. It was a somewhat poor quality affair and my feeling at the time was that it was a cheap way for someone to have a defensive weapon, a tanto blade almost certainly being more expensive than a by then more-or-less useless short yari, of which I'm sure there were thousands freely available. Maybe they are "rare" in Japan because they were mostly sold as curios in the Meiji period??

 

Regards,

Barry Thomas.

[Bugyotsuji]

  Bazza said:

  Mark Green said:

Piers, I never would have guessed that about that yari/tanto. I knew it looked well done. but Edo. That is great, and like said rare. I have seen a few with Habaki.

Maybe we should start a new thread, and see how many Yari/tanto come out of the woodwork? I have one.

Mark G

Mark, Piers, All,

I once had a sankaku yari mounted as an aikuchi tanto, the blade being only 4 or so inches long. The nakago had been cut, of course, but the mei SHIMOSAKA was still evident. Now, it is true that I have never seen another one (maybe one other??). Edo?? Whilst the yari itself was no doubt old, the aikuchi tanto koshirae I thought was perhaps Meiji although of course it could have been late Edo. It was a somewhat poor quality affair and my feeling at the time was that it was a cheap way for someone to have a defensive weapon, a tanto blade almost certainly being more expensive than a by then more-or-less useless short yari, of which I'm sure there were thousands freely available. Maybe they are "rare" in Japan because they were mostly sold as curios in the Meiji period??

 

Regards,

Barry Thomas.

 

Good point. Lots of yari with rusted lower tangs which can be snapped off and reshaped, and lots of out-of-work katana shokunin, and lots of Western visitors and you get... a+b+c =

[Brian]

Not to get too far off the topic, but if the subject is yari mounted as tanto, then I was under the imression that they were far from scarce. I have seen quite a number of them, obviously from the Edo period and done that way in times when yari were less useful and a handy dagger could be easily and cheaply made.

Most of the sword shows I was at in Japan had a few of these for sale, and they were not expensive.

 

Brian