Shinsa decisions….justification?

[Matsunoki]

I see from the thread “Japanese sword from Court” that a wonderful and rare blade has failed at Juyo.

My question is simple……why don’t the Shinsa Panel tell us (or rather the owner) why it failed?

Those submitting a blade pay for the privilege, wait for however long it takes but then simply get a “no”. Surely the owner is entitled to expect more than that from these professionals?

Why so secretive?
Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere at sometime.

All the best.

Colin

[paulb]

Hi Colin

I think that has always been one of the frustrations with the NBTHK they have never, as far as I am aware, offered an explanation (They may do in person to Japanese members or if asked directly but I don't know)

I think part of the problem is volume, they see too many swords and it would be too larger task and partly language. The quality of English within the organisation has improved greatly but there still appears to be a reluctance to communicate. If it were the other way round, we would find it equally challenging. 

The NTHK have a different approach if they fail something they will usually say why and if gimei they will say what they think the sword is.

[Ray Singer]

https://web.archive.org/web/20201022000337/https://blog.yuhindo.com/hozon-is-a-test-juyo-is-a-competition/

[Matsunoki]

Ray, thanks for that link. Interesting but also shocking.
If that’s how it works then it reduces the process to a “pot luck” lottery that depends on what your sword is “up against” rather than how good your sword is “in its own rights”. Seems nuts that a sword that deserves Juyo doesn’t get it…..but “it might if you keep trying”..and keep waiting a few more years….and keep paying.

To me, it’s plain crazy….and very difficult to logically justify.

Just my uneducated opinion!

All the best.

Colin

 

[Rivkin]

With Juyo the process is subjective and explaining it is difficult. 

The funner part is that papers don't even have to identify the smith, they just confirm the item is worthy of preservation. They don't have to identify the province (though usually do), the generation or the date. They typically do make a note of sorts, if the difference in period involves serious money, but by default they don't have to. The system helps beginner collectors who would be lost without papers and dealers who get "security" backing for their offerings. No wonder they and their agents always get hysterically violent on the forums when someone challenges the papers - "well, issue you own", etc..

Its not an educational or discourse tool per se, not intended to be one, not setup to be one. Its also a huge stream of money for a few days of work per session.

 

I just got papered Kamakura ko dachi (NBTHK) and thought the school attribution seemed weird (atypical hamon, borderline atypical boshi). One of the alternative shinsa gave it late Muromachi Kaga.

Both are understandable - suriage ko dachi with its toriizori, wide mihaba with little taper can be easily confused with late Muromachi. Nie utsuri can be at times reinterpreted as shirakke. etc.etc.etc.

So both are not insane attributions, but they rely on specific interpretations.

 

If you take a major Juyo or even TJ blade which is "weird" (suriage ko dachi are difficult, and there are plenty of others) and submit to NBTHK for Hozon... You'll often be surprised with a result. More so if its NTHK, where the standards of judgement are different to begin with. Their statistics of names issued is very much divergent from each other (NTHK NPO vs. NTHK) and from NBTHK. Its also divergent between shinsa generations. Everytime someone important departs (surprisingly there is only one way it happens) you look at the pile of judgment sheets (even NBTHK issues them, they are just small), and its a different world... And no one wants to have to explain why its different.

[Gakusee]

3 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Ray, thanks for that link. Interesting but also shocking.
If that’s how it works then it reduces the process to a “pot luck” lottery that depends on what your sword is “up against” rather than how good your sword is “in its own rights”. Seems nuts that a sword that deserves Juyo doesn’t get it…..but “it might if you keep trying”..and keep waiting a few more years….and keep paying.

To me, it’s plain crazy….and very difficult to logically justify.

Just my uneducated opinion!

All the best.

Colin

 

Colin, 

it might seem unfair but that is one of the charms and secrets as to why it is such a coveted rank.
Firstly, Juyo swords by definition are the ones which deserve it / qualify for it on qualitative, aesthetic, historic grounds and secondly they are additionally swords which happen to excel (in their tradition, time period, smith, school etc) in their category and be superior to others in the same category. So, there are two sets of criteria: absolute and relative. Sometimes swords fail on the relative set of criteria,  even though they might otherwise qualify on the absolute set. 
 

If someone analyses the published swords in the Zufu which passed in the unfortunate shinsa that disappointed someone, that someone then can probably deduce why his / her sword failed: it could be that his failed Hizento just was 5cm shorter than the ones that passed, or his failed Kagemitsu was gakumei but the one that passed was ubu and zaimei, or  that there were too many submitted Bizento and they have their statistical distribution to adhere to (and hence have to pass some Yamato, some Shinto, some Gendaito) which obliterates his otherwise top-notch Yosozaemon Sukesada, etc etc.
Sometimes, we feel deprived and cheated but that is how it is. If we do not like it, we can always choose not to submit. But if you play the game, it helps to have an understanding of how it works. 

 

[Gakusee]

2 hours ago, Rivkin said:

 

 

I just got papered Kamakura ko dachi (NBTHK) and thought the school attribution seemed weird (atypical hamon, borderline atypical boshi). One of the alternative shinsa gave it late Muromachi Kaga.

 

Hey Kiril, could you please specify if that kodachi was awarded a Juyo status? If so, firstly, congratulations and secondly - what was the Juyo judgement as to school / smith please. If I may, I would like to contrast it with the Kaga school you refer to in the NTHK comments. 
Thank you. 

[Matsunoki]

8 minutes ago, Gakusee said:

Sometimes, we feel deprived and cheated but that is how it is. If we do not like it, we can always choose not to submit. But if you play the game, it helps to have an understanding of how it works. 

Evening Michael…many thanks.

I think I have an exaggerated sense of justice and fair play!

This has been very enlightening to say the least. There is a lot I would like to say but I won’t…..I might get chucked out of the Forum!
I just cannot see any reason nor any fairness in rejecting a sword that justifies a particular “ranking” just because there are better swords in that Shinsa session…….especially if it might pass in the next one. The sword hasn’t changed has it? 
Anyway, as you say, that’s how it is. I will never submit any sword to an overseas Shinsa- I’d like it back before I die! The issues with international shipping will only get worse, so for me it’s just an interesting discussion subject…..and I’m sure it’s all been said before.

If ever you are in these Eastern wastelands you would be most welcome.

All the best.Colin

 

 

[Franco D]

 

Quote

 

Lyrics

 

People say I'm crazy
Doin' what I'm doin'
Well, they give me all kinds of warnings
To save me from ruin

When I say that I'm okay
Well, they look at me kinda strange
Surely you're not happy now
You no longer play the game

People say I'm lazy
Dreamin' my life away
Well, they give me all kinds of advice
Designed to enlighten me

When I tell them that I'm doing fine
Watchin' shadows on the wall
Don't you miss the big time, boy?
You're no longer on the ball

I'm just sittin' here
Watchin' the wheels go round and round
I really love to watch them roll
No longer ridin' on the merry-go-round
I just had to let it go

Ah, people askin' questions
Lost in confusion
Well, I tell them there's no problem
Only solutions

Well, they shake their heads
And they look at me as if I've lost my mind
I tell them there's no hurry
I'm just sittin' here doin' time

I'm just sittin' here
Watchin' the wheels go round and round
I really love to watch them roll
No longer ridin' on the merry-go-rounds
I just had to let it go
I just had to let it go
I just had to let it go

Source: Musixmatch

Songwriters: John Winston Lennon

Watching the Wheels lyrics © Lenono Music

 

 

 

 

[Baba Yaga]

I'll say it once again, overseas Shinsa has changed dramatically in the last few decades and not for the better. IMOP it has cheapen the purest of the hobby. 

[reinhard]

On 11/16/2022 at 5:08 PM, Rivkin said:

I just got papered Kamakura ko dachi (NBTHK) and thought the school attribution seemed weird (atypical hamon, borderline atypical boshi). One of the alternative shinsa gave it late Muromachi Kaga.

 

Hi Kirill.

Are you refering to Kamakura as place or a time-period?

Whatever you are refering to:

Could you please explain what "atypical hamon" and "atypical boshi" mean in this particular case?

Help us understand with pictures and precise informations of the blade.

Thank you

 

reinhard

 

[reinhard]

On 11/16/2022 at 6:29 PM, Gakusee said:

If someone analyses the published swords in the Zufu which passed in the unfortunate shinsa that disappointed someone, that someone then can probably deduce why his / her sword failed: it could be that his failed Hizento just was 5cm shorter than the ones that passed, or his failed Kagemitsu was gakumei but the one that passed was ubu and zaimei, or  that there were too many submitted Bizento and they have their statistical distribution to adhere to (and hence have to pass some Yamato, some Shinto, some Gendaito) which obliterates his otherwise top-notch Yosozaemon Sukesada, etc etc.

Sometimes, we feel deprived and cheated but that is how it is. If we do not like it, we can always choose not to submit. But if you play the game, it helps to have an understanding of how it works. 

 

 

Thank you, Michael,

 

This is exactly what the NBTHK shinsa is all about.

The NBTHK might not be infallible in every case, but in general they are doing pretty well.

Of course there are some dealers whining about the "good old days" when they were able to tell their customers whatever they wanted to hear, uncontradicted.

I see some of them here too, on NMB, eagerly trying to undermine NBTHKs's credibility for a simple reason.

They are just not good enough for this kind of trade.

 

reinhard

 

[Rivkin]

On 11/16/2022 at 11:47 AM, Baba Yaga said:

I'll say it once again, overseas Shinsa has changed dramatically in the last few decades and not for the better. IMOP it has cheapen the purest of the hobby. 

 

I feel the field is just too complex for 100% certain single line answers.

I will trump my usual trumpet that I papered a considerable number of blades (probably 200?) in a lifetime, and not a single judgement received was completely impossible... Even if later every other judge in the field gave an opposite opinion.

You sort of get a feeling "oh, they must have relied on how hamon behaves here".

There are some judges "married" to sugata, others to nioi-guchi, ir other features which they value extraordinary high. The big issue is that with early koto very often the categories are completely invented in a sense that there is a miniscule (if any) number of signed examples. So you have a judge A who says "I define it as Houju" and a judge B who says "No, its ko Uda", or maybe "Hokke". And a simple reality that there is no signed/dated or even just signed sword with this set of features.

Interestingly enough when people who are really good at this visit someone and look at stuff, they seldom say "This is X". "A very good item, can be this or that".

[Baba Yaga]

12 hours ago, Rivkin said:

 

I feel the field is just too complex for 100% certain single line answers.

 

 I'm sorry I wrote as much as I did. The game isn't about steel, or complicated answers my friend. It's about American Benjamins and how to receive more for less. 

[Katsujinken]

No one is forcing anyone to submit blades for Juyo or any other shinsa. If you want a paper for any reason the options are clear and everyone is entitled to make the choice appropriate for them based on their goals and (especially) expertise.

[Alex A]

Taking in all of what has been said above, hammers home this thought that keeps reoccurring over and over again.

 

 Ruling out a lot, i know, but no longer interested in unsigned swords and swords which are not definitive in type of work for the smith, oddballs.

 

Would not want to end up with Sayagaki to this and papered to that, hate it.

 

You own it but your not sure what is, a massive minus, especially when you need to ask a shinsa panel.

 

 

 

 

[paulb]

Not saying I'm right and your wrong Alex but my perspective is pretty much the opposite of what describe. 

First and foremost I have to like what I am seeing regardless of whether it was signed or not or I know exactly who made it and when.

I now have two signed blades the rest mumei and some have varying attribution. What they all have common is a beautiful shape and hada and all in good condition. 

As said this isn't necessarily right just different. It's a positive thing that there are so many different approaches 

 

[Jacques D.]

As I have never attended a shinsa session I will refrain from commenting on this subject as it would be discussing the sex of angels. 

[Rivkin]

I think many collectors traverse the same evolutionary tree. At one time they have a blade that everyone around tells them is Ichimonji, they submit it and get "Bungo".

"Aaa, this is because I am a Gaijin".

Some stick to things which are 100% provable, which is not uncommon among Shinto and Bizen collectors. If one collects pretty much anything in daito form outside of these areas, one has to get used to mumei.

I personally accepted uncertainty. Within my typical interests I think I have a good grasp of what these opinions are based upon... And comfortable with making my own choices and enjoying (very few) blades I really like.

[Alex A]

Hi Paul, yes, its all a matter of perspective

 

Become tired of "ifs and maybe" swords, no matter the quality. 

 

There are enough signed swords out there to keep me happy, no interest in owning any more swords where i cant get it down to one smith. 

 

Even if i could afford mumei swords by the highest rank smiths, i wouldn't be interested.

 

Spend enough time in an hobby and you just come to your own conclusions at one point or another, narrow the field and buy less swords. Owned enough ? swords, sick of em lol

 

That wont stop me admiring the work of any mumei sword, just not for ownership. Sometimes you come across something different that's appealing, rarely though.

 

No disrespect to any collecting choices, we all differ and change as time moves along.

 

 

 

 

[reinhard]

3 hours ago, Rivkin said:

At one time they have a blade that everyone around tells them is Ichimonji, they submit it and get "Bungo".

Well, "everyone around" does not necessarily include knowledge.

Especially not when confusing "Ichimonji" with "Bungo".

BTW "Bungo" what?

Ko-Bungo Yukihira, Sadahide, or Bungo Takada school?

None of them can be seriously confused with Ichimonji.

 

reinhard

 

[Alex A]

Forgot to mention, many signed blades out there where you still cant get it down to one smith.

 

Remember facts and fundementals had a few pages on the subject, just pulled it out and had another look.

 

These paragraphs are relevent to what has been talked about above, folk will always have this discussion.

 

Its not about just buying a sword because its signed, its about buying a good sword and knowing who made it. For some, like me, not knowing exactly who made it becomes a tiresome niggle.

[Matsunoki]

This “discussion” is heading in exactly the same direction as when I formed my first collection aeons ago…..and it will continue in that vein until no-one is interested anymore I guess!

The old topics….. mei vs mumei, papers vs none, Koto vs Shinto, ubu vs suriage, koshirae vs shirasaya,  gimei vs genuine (not that anyone really knows), long swords vs short swords, opinion vs opinion vs opinion etc etc

Of course it is interesting and very challenging to build knowledge and expertise as long as it doesn’t spoil the pleasure we derive from these magnificent weapons. 
Way back, a very famous Japanese polisher that I was honoured to have visit me several times told me, almost in the exact words from the book quoted above - unless you stand next to the smith as he forges it you can never be sure…..it’s just opinions. 
That really clarified for me what I wanted to collect based on two simple questions “do I like it?” and “is it a good sword” Yes or no. Anything that you can learn about it after that (often with very kind and generous help from others) is the icing in the cake that led me to many friendships. 
I try to collect “good” swords in koshirae that exist largely in the condition that the last Samurai owner left it in. Not as easy as it used to be!

Now we can debate what is “a good sword”🙂🙂

Just my 2p worth

All the best.

Colin

 

[Alex A]

In any collecting hobby you reach a point where you have enough knowledge to work out what matters to you.

 

As i head towards retirement i don't want lots of swords with ??, just some really good signed examples.

 

I suppose it depends where you are in the hobby and what you like.

 

It does not need to be a permanent quest for knowledge, we not like the wise man that gets to sit at the top of the mountain, one can be happy with what they have learned and what they have attained.

 

One day, the family might have to sell, would like to think il make it as straight forward as possible with good stuff that will sell fast. lol

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rivkin]

I think big issue with koto attributions is they deny most major smiths a "formative" period. The comparison is made to a few signed, prized blades which retained ubu form since they were collectibles from the day one, anything of lesser quality is got to be "the second generation".

If we look at modern smiths... Nabuhira, the American smith, first blades (made in Japan) are above the level of early Showa's production. Latest blades are good and look nothing like the early ones.

For a koto smith such story is unthinkable. Part is that all their early work was signed by the father, part is the early blades are nowhere to be used for comparison, and even if they appear, they'll be called gimei...

[Baba Yaga]

The 

4 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

This “discussion” is heading in exactly the same direction as when I formed my first collection aeons ago…..and it will continue in that vein until no-one is interested anymore I guess!

The old topics….. mei vs mumei, papers vs none, Koto vs Shinto, ubu vs suriage, koshirae vs shirasaya,  gimei vs genuine (not that anyone really knows), long swords vs short swords, opinion vs opinion vs opinion etc etc

Of course it is interesting and very challenging to build knowledge and expertise as long as it doesn’t spoil the pleasure we derive from these magnificent weapons. 
Way back, a very famous Japanese polisher that I was honoured to have visit me several times told me, almost in the exact words from the book quoted above - unless you stand next to the smith as he forges it you can never be sure…..it’s just opinions. 
That really clarified for me what I wanted to collect based on two simple questions “do I like it?” and “is it a good sword” Yes or no. Anything that you can learn about it after that (often with very kind and generous help from others) is the icing in the cake that led me to many friendships. 
I try to collect “good” swords in koshirae that exist largely in the condition that the last Samurai owner left it in. Not as easy as it used to be!

Now we can debate what is “a good sword”🙂🙂

Just my 2p worth

All the best.

Colin

 

 

That's a good way of looking at it. I've seen ALOT of of mumei suriage swords "pitted" with Hozon papers / 150 years span. Once a collector gets to a certain level of understanding they either figure it out, or they don't. 

"I" believe the nihonto community outside of Japan has enough scholars who have figured it out. Too many young  collectors  get hung-up on opinions from commerce, way to many.

[rematron]

This is fascinating.  I'm learning so much by reading all of these posts and topics and getting a much better feel for what this hobby/passion is all about. Maybe NMB could create it's own papers... hahaha