tsuba oppinion

[Guido]

now answer this

do you think this tsuba is a modern investment cast steel copy or do you think it has age?

simple question

This isn't a court session. But to answer your question: I don't have the faintest idea, and honestly, I don't care. All I see is a lump of steel / iron / play-dough or whatever it might be, and I wouldn't bother to pick it up if I'd see it lying abandoned on the street. It is devoid of any artistic qualities. At least IM not so HO. Sorry if this sounds offensive, but I'm all for calling things by their name, I'm no good at beating around the bush. I normally don't comment at all on items forumites present here if I don't have anything positive to say, but since you're asking for it so vehemently ...

 

P.S.: I hope I didn't confuse you by using caps, commas and period marks.

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Ian,

 

in response to your comments;

 

No, you cast it and de-carborise it then you work it up with chisels and files. We know they did this with tetsubin so why not tsuba.

 

Cast iron tea kettles were exactly what I imagined someone would offer as a claim for casting. The fact is there is almost no comparison between cast iron and cast steel artifacts. The technology required to cast steel like this was simply not available in Ed period Japan.

 

Imagine you have a flat circular plate of iron in front of you. You also have a simple archimedian drill with spear bits, a piercing saw of some form, chisels and a few files. Now make that tsuba. Then start sawing, chiselling and finally filing and smoothing. How long to do that - weeks probably.

 

Actually, about a week is more close to the truth.

 

How long do you think it would take to even drill a hole through that plate just to get the saw blade through.

on average, using a bow drill and a spear point as described and through 5mm plate, about 5 min.

The actual piercing out of a guard like an Akasaka piece takes on average a day and a half using a modern Jewellers piercing saw. Piercing with copper wire and an abrasive grit takes about 2 and a half times as long so I'd suggest about 4 days.

 

This would be fine if you were a craftsman whose work commanded a high price, but a back-street fittings maker struggling to earn a crust couldn't afford to do that. No, you cast it and de-carborise it then you work it up with chisels and files.

Even if we for a moment imagine that they had this sort of technology how would this struggling "back-street fittings maker" have afforded what would certainly have been cutting edge technology? See the questions I propose need to be answered before you can posit this hypothesis. And following from that, if this advanced steel casting technology was available why was it only ever used to produce such awful junk?

 

struggling to earn a crust

no...not likely, the Japanese didn't eat bread then :D

 

The idea that all 'artists' had their work dragged from their very soul is romantic, but I suspect far from the truth.

Not sure what you're trying to suggest, you seem to be implying that my position is that unless it's a singular work by a great artist isn't not valid work. I've never suggested that at all, just that there;'s a point at which some items become so devoid of any redeeming qualities that I find it hard to see how they may have been produced in Edo period Japan at all.

 

I whole heartedly agree with you about the different grades of work produced but I maintain that there is a cut off point in terms of crapness. I think these attempts to imagine plausible scenarios that might explain how such rubbish came to be produced is a bit "cart before the horse". It remains to be shown that these are of any age at all.

 

it is clearly old - the corrosion that has built up has not been applied by a modern faker with some chemical gunk.

 

What you appear to be offering is, "if it looks old it is old"...I can't find this acceptable as any sort of reasoned argument.

 

Again, I will maintain that this sort of rust is not any sure indication of age...any tool left outside for 10 years will easily look far worse than this. And fakers don't use gunk...the creation of rust based finishes is very efficiently achieved with fairly simple methods. But I suspect you know this and the implication that modern fakers are just inept bodgers is misleading. They know what they are doing and are getting better at it. They know what we will be looking out for and are perfectly able to add bits of simple inlay, sekigane etc as well.

[IanB]

Ford, I have been looking for, and at, both real and fakes for many years. What I was trying to say was two things: Modern fakes (let us say made within the last 40 years) are usually either very, very good, imitating the finest originals and hence commanding high prices, or they imitate low-end originals and hence have to be made very cheaply because they fetch little. In addition I was pointing out that in Edo period Japan the originals came in all grades and similar constraints applied. Some tsuba were superbly made, others were pot-boilers for those with less money. In the first case the artist spent a considerable time on them, in the latter case they had to be made as easily and cheaply as possible. It is my opinion that this tsuba is one of the latter - genuine but cheaply made.

Some time ago the Royal Armouries acquired a 16th C mace covered in the most exquisite gold overlay. It was bought as a fake but the more I looked the more I became convinced it was genuine. It had scenes of sieges, minutely done in different coloured golds. The highlights were convincingly rubbed, the corrosion was where it should have been and even under a microscope there was absolutely nothing to suggest it was other than genuine and of the period. However, when X-rayed an internal whitworth thread gave it away.

Ian

[cspage]

What's an internal whitworth thread? Sorry...off topic. Insatiable curiousity.

 

Colin

[Guest nickn]

a few years back i took a load of dave edwards sukashi tsuba and arrow heads to the great western gun show were i had a table selling militaria . one very well known us dealer bought most of them and at the next show ,6 months latter, showed them to me after they had been buried in a flower pot outside his house and watered every day. they looked hundreds of years old and once he had boned the rust off quite convincing. so i have to agree with ford that sometimes rust is not the best indicator of age

[Ford Hallam]

Ian,

 

Please don't get me wrong. I had no doubt at all about your hands on experience given the work you've done as a professional and I think we agree pretty much on most points. My contention, however, is firstly that I judge Nick's tsuba to be cast steel. No need for me to go over the reasons...I've laid out my case. Rightly or wrongly I trust the material I've written may be of use in general terms to others with enquiring minds.

 

The second point, and this is the real statement I've been trying to crowbar in here , is that there is no convincing evidence that tsuba were actually cast in steel in the Edo period. We must use our knowledge of contemporary work practice and technologies to asses unknown works and not come at the subject backwards and use these debatable pieces to build speculative theories.

 

The reason I raised the second point and fallowed though as I did was precisely because there seemed to a feeling in some quarters that while they weren't prepared to see the tsuba as a modern cast piece it was felt more plausible that it might be an older ( ie antique) casting. It is this accomodationist (sic) attitude towards these things I was intent on challenging.

 

In my opinion, Items of such poor quality should sensibly be judged with a great deal of suspicion and only accepted as genuine if their case can be proved. They are just so bad they must be judged as guilty until proved innocent

 

best regards,

 

Ford (Founder of the Society for the preservation and appreciation of all that is finest in Tsuba)

 

p.s. Ian, I really appreciated the piece you wrote on the origins of Namban tsuba. I made a copy for my own records. Thanks

[IanB]

Colin, The maker of this glorious fake, to whom I take my hat off, used a screw thread inside the shaft of the mace to hold it together. The real ones were hammer welded. By measuring the diameter and turns per inch of the thread, from the X-rays, it matched reasonably well to the standard laid down by Joseph Whitworth in 1841 and used in the UK until the metric system was forced on us.

Nick, yes I absolutely agree with both Ford and yourself that the corrosion on the tsuba could easily be obtained given a relatively short period of time. I am told, by a superb maker of Scottish basket hilted swords, that horse manure is about as good as anything in this respect. However, corrosion is a factor to consider - in isolation its not proof. Every feature must be examined and considered. Without the tsuba in hand, and in some cases even with it, all one can say is that 'in my opinion' etc. As I said, without metallurgic analysis one cannot be definite.

Ford, I take your point and agree in many areas with what you say. The problem is we don't really know what was going on. I have found evidence of casting on a fine tsuba, in the Royal Armouries collection - tiny beads of metal in the angles from bubbles in the investment. The trouble is, when was that tsuba made. I don't know. To all intents and purposes it was Edo period but since no Europeans were shipping them to Europe then, it could be Meiji or later. I came across an interesting point in a copy of Bushido magazine (of fond memory) a while ago with regard to Goto menuki by Kawaguchi Noboru (Vol1 no3). He states that the Goto cast the menuki and that the moulds from Yujo onward have been kept. Again, an obvious way to make them, yet so many insist they were repousse. In an exhibition catalogue I have called Katchu, abumi, tosogu of Kaga, there are casts taken from such moulds.

Ian.

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Ian,

 

with reference to the Goto actually casting gold menuki I would add the following.

 

I've seen those casts taken from apparent moulds. The first time I saw them I immediately realise what they were and their purpose. The moulds are in fact simply imprints taken from the original uchidashi made menuki, either in clay or some similar plastic material. The copies are then created by pouring warm matsuyani into the mould. Matsuyani ( pine rosin) is the stuff we use to hold the work when being carved and inlaid etc. Once it begins to cool you can further work it into the mould with your thumb.

 

I think that it was a misunderstanding of these reference models in pine rosin that has led to this erroneous idea that some Goto menuki were cast.

 

There are a number of practical reasons why this would be unlikely. The most problematic being getting molten gold to adequately fill a mould that necessarily only had an inner cavity with a thickness of less than 1.5 mm. It's tricky even with centrifugal casting. Vacuum ( very modern process ie post war) casting on the other hand does the job beautifully. Therein lies a little concern.

 

If I had in my possession a genuine pair of gold Goto menuki I can, by utilising the technology I was trained in, create copies that would be virtually indistinguishable from the originals.

 

Here's a picture of the moulds you mention...they still make me smile at the misunderstanding.

 

 

 

 

 

You can see the traces of clay on the rosin. If this was a way of creating waxes to cast you'd still have to hollow out the back as they are solid. Also, it would probably not be any quicker to make them by casting by the time you factor in all the additional clean up etc.

[IanB]

Ford, I bow to your knowledge and expertise. I was musing earlier (yes its off topic I know) about replica and replacement parts, cocks and frizzens etc, for antique guns. Years ago, they were crude almost to the point where it was almost worth hacking them from solid. I bought some recently and they were so good that even the engraving was there. They also now do delicate frizzen springs in carbon steel that only need a bit of polishing and tempering. Wow - progress.

Ian

[Ford Hallam]

Gosh Ian, ...you'll make me blush

 

your observation regarding cast steel part of matchlocks is a perfect example of what I've been getting at. As far as I know the finest such parts are presently made by Edward J Blackley and sons in England. Really fine people to do business with too.

[b.hennick]

This thread has been a great learning experience for me. I appreciate the contributions to my knowledge base made by several contributors. I must also thank the original poster for without that post I would not be in the position I now am. I have a big smile on my face :D

Special thanks to Ford and Ian who continue to educate all of us. I especially appreciate the time you put into thinking and then posting to this board.

Again much appreciation!

 

_________________

Regards,

Barry Hennick

[Ford Hallam]

Thanks Barry, I reckon Nick's quid was well spent after all then :D

 

regards all,

 

Ford

 

oh, and just to clarify, for anyone not reading all the posts in detail, there's a lot to deal with I know , the casting issue I'm talking about here is only about steel. The casting of bronze type alloys is an entirely different matter. There are many issues in that area that need to be address also, in my opinion, but that will be for another time.