tsuba oppinion

[Markus]

Can we see more close ups of your Tsuba?

 

Noooooooo (please imagine flying birds from my house, hearing my cry;)

[Guest nickn]

this is getting silly

reinhard i am no expert i never said i was but ford stated the tsuba was a "MODERN STEEL CAST COPY" which it isnt old cast iron copy probably. and why make fun all the time?

i have been collecting Japanese swords for over 30 years and have a very nice collection inc some high end items i dont normally collect fittings unless they came off a sword i have sent for polish

but i believe ,apart from a couple of forum members, everyone else would have paid £1 $1.60 for this tsuba

[Stephen]

with out more pix why is this still going on? need a or putting something to bed smilie

 

Edit to add.....Hell ya id pick it up for a buck....good bad or ugly....always find something to do with a buck tsuba....give the guy a break....he wasnt expecting gold for nada.

[Guest nickn]

stephen

i think i would have shot the horse but as requested here are some photos of sukashi i have cleaned up a bit with a file. there are no casting marks only rust and crude also under a microscope the mei has been cut with a chisel

nick

[Guest nickn]

2

[Guest nickn]

sorry about the photo quality

[Mark Green]

Thanks for the pics Nick.

From what I have seen, if it is a cast repo, I would say it was well done. It seems to be a near copy of one of those pictured in the link above.

For those or us trying to learn, maybe you guys that Know, could tell us what they see in these new pics that makes this a copy????

My first thoughts were that it was a cast copy of some orig. tsuba. The mei seemed very light, and the fitting scars looked like they were part of the cast. But the whole tsuba is very worn. and dusty. I don't know?

Thanks, Mark G

[Guest nickn]

hello mark

in hand ,and i think from my bad photos, its easy to see that it is not a modern cast steel copy there is no evidence of casting flanges (i think thats the correct word) and the seppa dai is not sunken .under a microscope you can clearly see that the mei ,gimei or not, has been put on with a chisel . in responce to fords statement that he had never heard of an original having brass or copper eyes or fangs apparently on originals they were gilded on copper or brass so i guess due to this tsubas worn state the gilding has rubbed off

nick

[Mark Green]

It seemed like many here thought the worn look was 'DONE' by someone to fake it's age?

I guess that could be so, but Why? It was obviously on a sword once.

I don't know enough to say, but I like the tsuba. I'd give ya 10$ for it today

Good luck, Mark

[Guest nickn]

i cannot see why the woman i bought it from would lie as to were it came from so the wear could have happened by lots of means perhaps it was used as a paper weight ?.i have a very mid 19th century devil or pan head french bronze paper weight and all the detail has worn away not just the head but all over

[Ford Hallam]

Mark, Nick,

 

have either of ever actually filed steel? Do you know how hard the stuff is? If either of you honestly believe the appearance of this piece is due to natural wear could you at least offer some sort of explanation as to how. This sort of wear isn't even seen on 200 year old wrought iron hand rails in London, that have had hundreds of hands rubbing them every day. The wear is so even and glaring artificial I'm staggered there is even any more discussion on the thing.

 

Nick,

 

you have repeatedly stated that it clearly isn't a modern copy but have admitted that it "may be", "is probably" an old casting. As I've pointed out, the technology required to produce such small and complex steel castings simply wasn't available in the Edo period. A basic knowledge of metallurgical technology will prove that. Again, do you have any idea what it takes to produce products like this?

 

What you refer to as the casting flange is nothing of the sort, as I described earlier, it's a remnant of the wax mould. A couple of minutes with a scalpel is all it takes to remove while still in the wax form. If this is the only feature you rely on to identify a casting then I'd suggest you'll be easily fooled.

 

Casting is very common and relatively cheap today...but it wasn't always so.

 

Please ask yourself the following;

1. What would they have used to take a mould from the original with?

 

2. How would they have then filled that mould with wax, bearing in mind the need to fill all the spaces completely?

 

3. What material would they have been able to use to encase the wax model, that would retain the required detail and withstand the high temperatures required for casting steel?

 

4. How would they ensure that, with only gravity to help, the molten steel would actually fill the mould, especially all those thin sections?

 

5. Why, while we have quite a few references to the technologies of bronze and cast iron kettle casting from the Edo period, and a number of very detailed accounts ( Prof Gowlands papers in particular) of the state of Japanese metalworking technology at the turn of the last century there is not a single mention of this sort of achievement? This sort of advanced technology would have been a shock to Europeans to say the least because while the Victorians were jolly good at casting iron and steel making was improving the process of casting steel, never mind at this scale, was still a long way off.

 

6. Apart from dodgy looking tsuba have you ever seen any other verified, small cast steel objects from the Edo period...or any other culture at that time, for that matter?

 

7. While we know that Japanese casters were adept at producing original wax models do you know of any evidence that suggests they were able to produce multiple wax models from a mould?

 

If you think that sand casting might be an option let me assure you, even with the very sophisticated sand casting technology available today, casting a steel, sukashi tsuba is not a viable option. I know, about 25 years ago I produced a number of copies of guards from the Sasano book, in perspex, with the intention of having them cast in steel. The specialist foundry gave up after 3 attempts because the thin sections imprinted by the models in the sand simply collapsed every time. In fact the dancing crane tsuba I did about that time, which is in my picasa gallery, has a small hole drilled in the seppa-dai on the ura, to help with it's removal from the sand. It didn't really help

 

As I said before, I'm not interested in trying to change your opinion, Nick. What I would like to do is to remove this notion, that cast steel tsuba were made in the Edo period, from the range of probabilities. I just feel that as long as some people continue to think that there is a possibility that these terrible bits of "tsuba shaped cast steel" are in some way genuine then people will keep wasting their money and other people will continue to make the cursed things.

 

I say this because even in this discussion you have seemed, in a few posts to suggest that it might be an old casting. It seems to me therefore that you see enough to call it a casting but yet you still maintain it has some age. My point would be, if it looks like a casting it's modern.

 

That's all I have to say on the subject. In future I'll refrain from commenting on anything that I think may be a modern cast copy because, to be frank, I'm tired of debating with opinions that have been formed without any reference to real metalwork technology or practical experience and I end up sounding like a broken record

 

Apparently my sarcastic humour isn't always appreciated either, but please...given the effort I make surely I ought to be allowed some fun. and it's surely better than getting angry It's a thankless task being a heretic.

 

Thanks for the birthday wishes, Chris. Older...but no wiser

 

regards,

 

Ford

[Guest nickn]

ford

sorry this is not a modern cast steel copy but i will ask how modern do you think it is?

inleted brass copper eyes fang on a modern copy on the side with the eye missing you can see were it used to be ? do you have any photos of these copies? if one was made i am sure many more were where are they ? not turning up at boot fairs for a quid

the mei has been cut with a chisel ? seppa dai is not dished ? i can see hand finishing inside the sukashi. were not the later copies of originals cast then hand finished?

look i have this tsuba in my hand and have been collecting long enough to know a little bit about tsuba and i have to say this i believe on a weekly basis i handle many more swords and fittings then you do or did i dont remember bumping into you at uk fairs

and yes i do know a little bit about metal work but only have a c at A level sad i know

so i know its of no great value or quality i never said it was and i know you hate it and would not have bought it in fact i give up you are right its a modern chinese fake and i have been conned i will take it back sunday and demand my money back

nick

[drbvac]

You guys are a hoot :lol: and as much as I love a debate I better stick to what I know! Lost wax casting has been around for a long time in dentistry as thats how gold crowns (caps) are made for teeth. That I can do - no hope in hell of even attempting something like a Tsuba.

 

As far as the wear heres a Kinai tsuba that you could rub on forever and not reduce the crispness - its hard as iron.

 

As well as part of a total furniture package including fuchi-kashira and cap on saya (what that called) oh yeah kojiri, is this iron tsuba and although it looks worn or dulled I don't think it or the rest were cast - but what the hell do I know :

 

Thanks, and keep up the information flow - just glad its not flowing over me

[Guest nickn]

heres the female? dragon to your male ? dragon tsuba

[Guest nickn]

now heres a crisp 18th century tsuba although it does show a bit of wear

[reinhard]

ford sorry this is not a modern cast steel copy but i will ask how modern do you think it is?

 

Since you just didn't get it by now: CAST = MODERN (i.e. after Edo period and without any value whatsoever) There are more stylish paper-weights available for a buck (but you are insisting on some kind of reward, as it seems).

 

the mei has been cut with a chisel ?

 

Forget about the mei. It's sheer crap anyway. Looking carefully, you will notice, it was chiselled weakly over an older (cast) mei, which was unsufficiently erased. Its translation: "Yamashiro no Kuni Nishijin no Ju" was done quickly and probably out of a reflex, for this mei is so common. Obviously many things are definitely wrong about it.

 

i have this tsuba in my hand and have been collecting long enough to know a little bit about tsuba and i have to say this i believe on a weekly basis i handle many more swords and fittings then you do or did i dont remember bumping into you at uk fairs

nick

 

Well, you haven't "collected" enough to know even basics. Nobody cares what kind of stuff you are handling on a "weekly basis" as long as you don't learn anything from it, but most important: I'm friends/familiar with some of the most important collectors/curators in Japan and am visiting Japan on a regular basis for some years now, but I have never bumped into a small-time dealer from uk named nickn by now nor did I ever hear of his collection of "high-end swords" by now. Your are just not in the position to have a claim for any kind of authority on this board as you pretend to have. I met Ford last year in Japan and he seems to know what he is talking about, at least to some extent (sorry,Ford;-)) - You, on the other hand, have no clue and are stuck in "uk fairs". You won't like this to hear, but global players don't care so much about uk militaria fairs.

 

The one reason, why I'm wasting my time on NMB with silly posts like these is: I don't like the idea of honest and enthusiastic newbies lead astray by small-time dealers like you.

 

reinhard

[Mark Green]

OK then,

Thanks Ford

Yes, I have filed steel a bit. I have made and filed modern Steel tsuba. It is a bitch!!!

I have many friends that cast things in a mideval way. And some that do modern jewlery stuff with injection molding and such. Mostly in brass and bronze.

 

Anyway, Im just trying to learn enough to be able to pick out the obvious late period cast stuff at first glance. I have a better understanding now.

Oh, and Ford, I love your sarcastic side. But I think this thread got out of hand a bit. But we are all big boys here. So please feel free to hit me with the sharp side any time you think I need it.

You too Reinhard, but just remember, I'm not a Knight because I'm a rock star, or an actor

You pros need to check out this guys nice gifted sword viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5516

 

Later, Mark G

[IanB]

Gentlemen, gentlemen, Consider what is happening here. Its a tsuba that appears to have had a hard life. As for when it was made, it is clearly old - the corrosion that has built up has not been applied by a modern faker with some chemical gunk. As for the signature, think how many blades are gimei yet we don't consign them to the scrap box. We either have it removed or regard it as an interesting feature of the blade's history.

 

Is it cast or is it not? Without cutting it to bits and carrying out a careful study of its metallurgy I doubt we will ever know. Imagine you have a flat circular plate of iron in front of you. You also have a simple archimedian drill with spear bits, a piercing saw of some form, chisels and a few files. Now make that tsuba. How long do you think it would take to even drill a hole through that plate just to get the saw blade through. Then start sawing, chiselling and finally filing and smoothing. How long to do that - weeks probably. This would be fine if you were a craftsman whose work commanded a high price, but a back-street fittings maker struggling to earn a crust couldn't afford to do that. No, you cast it and de-carborise it then you work it up with chisels and files. We know they did this with tetsubin so why not tsuba. The idea that all 'artists' had their work dragged from their very soul is romantic, but I suspect far from the truth. Yes, there were artist / craftsmen who put their heart and soul into their work and created masterpieces, but to many it was more important to put rice in their families food bowls. After all, when you have already made many hundreds of tsuba in your working life it isn't that much different from putting the body panels on a car travelling along Honda's production line. I am sitting looking at a high class armour at the moment. The shoulder guards have been made from an old do - the plates have been flattened, trimmed to length, relacquered and relaced. How do I know? Well when they got to the plates from the waist section they were curved when flattened them out, so they cut them in half and rejoined them with rivets so that the plate ended up with two shallow bumps not one big one. It worked, it isn't too noticeable. Why go to all the trouble of drilling hundred of holes in a new plate when you have one already drilled in the corner of the workshop.

It would be a wonderful world if all of us could acquire nothing but National Treasures, but reality is different. Let us recognise that in the field of Japanese arms and armour, items were produced in all grades - all are relevant and add to the overall picture of what was happening in that distant past.

Ian Bottomley

[Guest nickn]

this is getting interesting reinhard disagrees with fords assertion that the tsuba is a modern steel investment forged piece of crap and says its an edo period forge piece of crap. it pains me to say this but i go along with reinhard apart from the bit about the gimei being over a cast signature which it isnt .

the rest of the world not intested in the uk ? we seem to get ,or at least used to, a lot of Japanese dealers coming here to buy stock where do you live reinhard germany? well that a well know country for aquiring Japanese items 3rd reich ones ,which sadly i also collect, perhaps . and what about all the internationally know british dealers collectors and experts ? name some german ones ??

ian

thank you for your post

nick

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Since you just didn't get it by now: CAST = MODERN

 

 

http://www.shibuiswords.com/kokinko.pdf

 

http://www.shibuiswords.com/masahisa.htm

[Guest nickn]

hello jacques

yes i know CAST=MODERN is incorrect perhaps reinhard was wrong

may i ask do you think this is a modern investment cast (from fords post i take this to mean made in the last 20 years or so) steel copy

i know its not very good i am not asking that i know the mei is wrong my original question was what did the mei say and age not quality or value

nick

[Guido]

Nick, will you ever stop presenting your assumptions as facts? Reinhard isn't German, nor does he live in Germany, but there are quite a few experts and top quality collections in that country. They don't come here and boast about handling priceless stuff on a daily basis, as you do, though.

[Jean]

Since the "Congrès de Vienne", Reinhard is "neutral"

[Guest nickn]

when did i say i handled priceless stuff on a daily basis??

look its a piece of worthless crap

give it up

[Guest nickn]

swiss

lovely country very nice people visited lots of times and bought loads of very good optics

[Guest nickn]

guido

were ians views just assumptions

are fords and rienhards facts?

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

hello jacques

yes i know CAST=MODERN is incorrect perhaps reinhard was wrong

may i ask do you think this is a modern investment cast (from fords post i take this to mean made in the last 20 years or so) steel copy

i know its not very good i am not asking that i know the mei is wrong my original question was what did the mei say and age not quality or value

nick

 

 

Honestly, i don't know, maybe yes, maybe no.

[Guido]

when did i say i handled priceless stuff on a daily basis??

i have been collecting Japanese swords for over 30 years and have a very nice collection inc some high end items...

... on a weekly basis i handle many more swords and fittings then you do or did ...

Sorry, my mistake, you handle that stuff on a *weekly*, not *daily* basis (although that would be pretty easy for you considering you own high end items).

give it up

Against all odds I hope this was a mental note you made and posted it by mistake ...

[Guest nickn]

guido

i do handle lots of swords on a weekly basis but i never suggested they were pricless or that items in my collection were priceless i just stated the fact that i own some high end stuff which i am sure lots of forum member do

now answer this

do you think this tsuba is a modern investment cast steel copy or do you think it has age?

simple question

nick

[Amon]

I don't think for one second that when Ford said modern he

meant that it was made in the last 20 years.

 

And please gents, don't throw tomatos on each other all the time.

There has been some nice inputs here so it would be great if it could continue

in that direction.

 

Regards,