Worth the estimate?

[Lee997]

Found this on an auction site, looks a very nice piece and is estimated at £1000-£1500. Looks good for the money would you agree?

 

would very much appreciate opinions?

 

Lee

[Okan]

Hi Lee, 

 

Pictures doesn't show condition of the blade..tsuba is ok, kozuka is nice..estimation looks correct.

 

but I would pass..

 

 

[Matsunoki]

Hi Lee

Dont pay any attention to estimates. The auctioneers usually haven’t got a clue. You are a brave man buying without having it in hand. Good luck! All the best. Colin

[David Flynn]

Lee, it appears to me you're doing pretty much what Steve(Swords), has been doing.   I suggest you join the British Token Soc.

[Lee997]

6 minutes ago, David Flynn said:

Lee, it appears to me you're doing pretty much what Steve(Swords), has been doing.   I suggest you join the British Token Soc.

Believe it or not David I already have. I’m out here on my own, with 25 yrs of on and off interest I’m keen ( maybe to keen) to own something nice before they all become unobtainable due to price increase! This looks very nice to me! Here in the Uk I don’t know where one would go to handle look at pieces? 
 

Rgds Lee.

[Lee997]

14 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Hi Lee

Dont pay any attention to estimates. The auctioneers usually haven’t got a clue. You are a brave man buying without having it in hand. Good luck! All the best. Colin

I don’t want to make a costly mistake but thought this looked good for the price. I’d like to handle before buying but where do you do that ?

 

[Okan]

And also, Auction houses lower the estimation prices so you can hope to win and join the auction...nearly all of them does this which I can understand and the end of the day this is their business and how they make money..This sword will be sold around 2 to 2.5k due to its newly made koshirae and nice-"ish" fittings..

[drbvac]

Find a reputable dealer somewhere that has a good rapoir and well known as trustworthy and offering good, papered nihonto especially if you are not able to actually hold the piece in hand. That said - many times if your were able to actually hold and see the blade it may not make any difference if you have no idea what you are looking at or for. I have purchased blades all over the world from auctions, dealers, e-bay (believe it or not) and like any other collectable the provenance and dealer is everything. You may luck out and get an inexpensive blade at a bargain price but chances are if it really was it would not even be for sale. After several hundred or even a couple hundred years you would be amazed at how many hands most of these swords have passed through, been appraised and assessed by people a lot more knowledgeable than I am.  Garage sales and old soldiers finds are becoming almost impossible to come across so - form a relationship with a dealer that can find and buy good blades, if not papered get them done and buy from him.

Quote

 

 

[Lee997]

14 hours ago, David Flynn said:

Lee, it appears to me you're doing pretty much what Steve(Swords), has been doing.   I suggest you join the British Token Soc.

Thanks David, I have joined the To-Ken society, been to one small meeting but yet to meet at any reasonable gathering! I don’t know Steve ( swords) so don’t know what he’s been doing ?

[Lee997]

10 hours ago, drbvac said:

Find a reputable dealer somewhere that has a good rapoir and well known as trustworthy and offering good, papered nihonto especially if you are not able to actually hold the piece in hand. That said - many times if your were able to actually hold and see the blade it may not make any difference if you have no idea what you are looking at or for. I have purchased blades all over the world from auctions, dealers, e-bay (believe it or not) and like any other collectable the provenance and dealer is everything. You may luck out and get an inexpensive blade at a bargain price but chances are if it really was it would not even be for sale. After several hundred or even a couple hundred years you would be amazed at how many hands most of these swords have passed through, been appraised and assessed by people a lot more knowledgeable than I am.  Garage sales and old soldiers finds are becoming almost impossible to come across so - form a relationship with a dealer that can find and buy good blades, if not papered get them done and buy from him.

 

I appreciate your thoughts Brian and I know that make sense. I’m keeping an eye out for any military fairs! Don’t know of any dealers other than what I’ve found on the internet and certainly wouldn’t know if they were reputable or not? 
I’ve spent the last 6-months year reading books I’ve recently acquired and my knowledge has increased on what it was however it’s not enough to feel confident to assess myself. 
I felt that this item at auction looks in great shape and is at least verifiable as what they say it is so figured it would be a good starting point!

 

Lee.

[Matsunoki]

Hi again Lee. I’m in the UK also….and it isn’t quite as easy here as it is in the USA! They have more dealers, more collectors, more restorers and a hell of a lot more swords!

Trouble is, it is becoming more problematical buying swords abroad and then trying to get them into the UK. We are having more than our fair share of issues with Customs/Borderforce. There are also problems shipping swords abroad if you want papers or restoration (polishing etc). All in all it’s getting more and more difficult to ship anything anywhere. Sad but true. The Token Society can give you advise on these topics.

The advise given above by Brian is rock solid but as you say, dealers are few and far between here. It would be worth you going to just about any arms fair (Birmingham, London etc) but they aren’t what they used to be either.

Another potential pitfall is buying swords from images. An image can conceal all sorts of problems. A strong Hadori polish makes it virtually impossible to see the true hamon……you really can’t see what you are buying.

So, where else can you see swords? Well, you have already found a few in scattered auctions. You really don’t have much choice but to travel to handle the swords in person before the sale. I’ve done round trips of 300+ miles to look at something. Sometimes it has saved me from a horrible mistake and  sometimes the item  is very nice…..but then you have to try to buy it! Good luck there. Forget totally all auction estimates including the London rooms. (Bonhams have swords in their Japanese sales normally).  You will quickly realise that everyone else has also found your treasure thus it becomes a matter of who wants it the most and who has the fattest wallet. It can be maddening!

So, view auctions in person if possible, go to arms fairs, contact dealers (Liverpool Militaria, JCMilitaria etc), try and establish a network of contacts but above all be patient and study. Learn what different “flaws” look like so you can spot them etc…..get the basics right and build from there. It takes time. Something will turn up. Enjoy the thrill of the chase! 

Happy hunting.  Colin

 

[Baba Yaga]

Unless you come across a back of the closet find many eyes have seen a sword. Even advanced collectors are fooled from time to time. 

Once upon a time someone finds something good and the whole cycle starts over again. I would say, it pays to learn, BUT  we all have

paid our dues $$$$$$

[Mark C]

Hi Lee,

 

Birmingham Arms fair is coming up (20th November) and there are various dealers in attendance:

 

Japanese warriors

Peter York

JC Militaria

Liverpool Militaria, Doesn't stall any more but Bill normally attends and will bring anything you fancy a look at with him.

 

Plus at least a couple more who's name I don't know.

 

Regards

 

[Lee997]

4 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Hi again Lee. I’m in the UK also….and it isn’t quite as easy here as it is in the USA! They have more dealers, more collectors, more restorers and a hell of a lot more swords!

Trouble is, it is becoming more problematical buying swords abroad and then trying to get them into the UK. We are having more than our fair share of issues with Customs/Borderforce. There are also problems shipping swords abroad if you want papers or restoration (polishing etc). All in all it’s getting more and more difficult to ship anything anywhere. Sad but true. The Token Society can give you advise on these topics.

The advise given above by Brian is rock solid but as you say, dealers are few and far between here. It would be worth you going to just about any arms fair (Birmingham, London etc) but they aren’t what they used to be either.

Another potential pitfall is buying swords from images. An image can conceal all sorts of problems. A strong Hadori polish makes it virtually impossible to see the true hamon……you really can’t see what you are buying.

So, where else can you see swords? Well, you have already found a few in scattered auctions. You really don’t have much choice but to travel to handle the swords in person before the sale. I’ve done round trips of 300+ miles to look at something. Sometimes it has saved me from a horrible mistake and  sometimes the item  is very nice…..but then you have to try to buy it! Good luck there. Forget totally all auction estimates including the London rooms. (Bonhams have swords in their Japanese sales normally).  You will quickly realise that everyone else has also found your treasure thus it becomes a matter of who wants it the most and who has the fattest wallet. It can be maddening!

So, view auctions in person if possible, go to arms fairs, contact dealers (Liverpool Militaria, JCMilitaria etc), try and establish a network of contacts but above all be patient and study. Learn what different “flaws” look like so you can spot them etc…..get the basics right and build from there. It takes time. Something will turn up. Enjoy the thrill of the chase! 

Happy hunting.  Colin

 

Colin thankyou for taking the time to write up this lengthy and helpful reply. I completely agree with everything you have said. I’ve attended one small To-Ken meeting and look forward to the next hopefully bigger with more members present. Certainly found the 1st meeting I went to very rewarding.

absolutely yes I need to study and learn more, so I’ll continue with my apprenticeship and bide my time looking at the auctions and military shops. I had already thought about military fairs but like you say, there not what they used to be?
Rgds Lee. 

[Lee997]

44 minutes ago, Mark C said:

Hi Lee,

 

Birmingham Arms fair is coming up (20th November) and there are various dealers in attendance:

 

Japanese warriors

Peter York

JC Militaria

Liverpool Militaria, Doesn't stall any more but Bill normally attends and will bring anything you fancy a look at with him.

 

Plus at least a couple more who's name I don't know.

 

Regards

 

Thankyou, sadly I’m away on 5his date as I had seen it previously. 

[FZ1]

On 11/7/2022 at 2:22 PM, Matsunoki said:

You really don’t have much choice but to travel to handle the swords in person before the sale.

 

Indeed, Colin it can be a bit of a trek sometimes.  I know our American friends think that the distances we travel around the UK are small, but given the congested roads and cost of fuel, it can take longer and cost more than travelling three times the distance in the USA!  

 

However, for private sales, I've found travelling to be a double-edged sword (pun intended!)  Yes, it costs a fortune in petrol and takes ages, but I've had the pleasure of meeting other UK collectors / NMB members when travelling to buy or sell swords.

 

Jon

 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

46 minutes ago, FZ1 said:

but I've had the pleasure of meeting other UK collectors / NMB members when travelling to buy or sell swords.

I usually go to sales etc in disguise. Look for the old man in a dirty mac using a walking stick and wearing a red rose in buttonhole who keeps talking to himself. Please say hello if you dare😳😳

…….agree, it’s no fun on our roads and even less fun when you discover you aren’t the only one there, or on the phone, or on the internet, or using a proxy, or has left a book bid……

……and even less fun when, after buying it, someone says “you did see the hagire didn’t you?”

……see you at Holts soon?🙂🙂🙂

Happy days. All the best.

Colin

 

[Lee997]

12 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

I usually go to sales etc in disguise. Look for the old man in a dirty mac using a walking stick and wearing a red rose in buttonhole who keeps talking to himself. Please say hello if you dare😳😳

…….agree, it’s no fun on our roads and even less fun when you discover you aren’t the only one there, or on the phone, or on the internet, or using a proxy, or has left a book bid……

……and even less fun when, after buying it, someone says “you did see the hagire didn’t you?”

……see you at Holts soon?🙂🙂🙂

Happy days. All the best.

Colin

 

Hey Colin, do we live in the same village? As I too live in a small village in east Anglia, what’s the chances? 🤣

 

Lee.