Anyone see this before?

[vajo]

Japanese blade in asien/ european mounts?

Wakizashi oder shortend katana.

Nagasa: 58,5 cm 

Mihaba: 3,0 cm

Kasane: 9 mm

Habaki 2 pieces silver

 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

The silver nunome work on the hilt and the phoenix pommel maybe suggest Indian? Similar to Bidri work?

[vajo]

He sent me some pictures of the blade.

 

 

[Misconstrued]

There doesn't appear to have a mekugi. There have been cases of where the swords nakago was butchered to put it in a smaller handle. I've never seen this before.

[vajo]

Something like that i think.

[Ray Singer]

Do you have a clear photo of the 'habaki'? I am having a little challenge seeing this as a Japanese blade, even one which has been substantially adapted to a foreign mounting. Look forward to seeing more.

[vajo]

Got this Ray.

 

 

[vajo]

This is the mouth of the dragon head. I think that small plate is over the screw.

 

[Bazza]

I sent the link to a mate of mine with broader interests ans he replied:

==============================================================================

Hi mate, Thanks for the link. 
I think what we are looking at is a variation of a Vietnamese guőm sword. 

maybe you can post this link for the thread? These sabres  often have Habaki type mounts. It's a really nice example, with some age (I'd hazard a guess at late 18thC, but it's just a stab in the dark!)

Anyway, this might be a good place for them to start their research. 

Hope you are well, Chat soon 

Antique Vietnamese arms | Mandarin Mansion

==============================================================================

Regards,

BaZZa.

[Ray Singer]

Peter was a good choice to share this with, I have done the same in similar cases.

[Wolfmanreid]

In the 17th century there was a fairly large semi-militarized Japanese expatriate population in what is now Vietnam. I’ve seen a couple Katanas in interesting Vietnamese made Japanese style koshirae (see attached photos, I think it’s in a museum in Amsterdam but may be misremembering) Would make sense that your sword could be a repurposed Japanese blade or Japanese influenced blade from Vietnam. 
 

 

 

[Brian]

They did indeed use a rough version of a habaki. That said, I expect this is completely native made and not a repurposed Japanese blade. Nice example.

[IBot]

The Royal Armouries Museum has a kastana from Sri Lanka that has a very worn wakizashi blade in it. I never managed to take the hilt off so I don't know if it had a signature. As an aside, we have in the collection a portrait of Alexander Popham who was prominant in the Civil War (the real one during the 17th century not the American one). He is depicted wearinng a kastana so there must have been quite a trade. Interestingly, the English continused to make hunting hangers with a sort of 'dragon-head' hilt that seems to have been inspired by kastana, well into the 18th century.

Ian Bottom;ey

[Wolfmanreid]

Based on the remnant of a mekugi ana in the tang of that blade I’m inclined to think it is a repurposed nihonto in sadly neglected condition. I’ve seen similar tangs on old blades reshaped to fit in Japanese civil official koshirae and also western saber style fittings. 

[Bazza]

Yes, but...  I've never seen a Nihonto where the bouhi ni tsurehi has the narrow groove near the back and the wide groove below it.  Always the wide groove is near the mune and the narrow groove at or near the shinogi.  So far I think indeed a Vietnamese blade.

 

BaZZa.

[Brian]

2 hours ago, Wolfmanreid said:

Based on the remnant of a mekugi ana in the tang of that blade I’m inclined to think it is a repurposed nihonto in sadly neglected condition. I’ve seen similar tangs on old blades reshaped to fit in Japanese civil official koshirae and also western saber style fittings. 

I don't think that is this blade. Just an outside example of the type of modification. I don't think the tang of this one is able to be shown.

[vajo]

All of these vietnam sabers had a bad quality. This piece is from an outstanding quality if it is made in vietnam.

 

[vajo]

Bazza you mean this?

Thats true i also have not seen invers bohi on nihonto.

 

on this yamato tegai katana it is only a short bo-hi 

[Wolfmanreid]

9 hours ago, Brian said:

I don't think that is this blade. Just an outside example of the type of modification. I don't think the tang of this one is able to be shown.

My mistake!  Thought the photos were of this sword’s nakago although a closer inspection reveals the third one is of a different sword entirely. 

[drbvac]

On 11/5/2022 at 7:36 AM, IBot said:

The Royal Armouries Museum has a kastana from Sri Lanka that has a very worn wakizashi blade in it. I never managed to take the hilt off so I don't know if it had a signature. As an aside, we have in the collection a portrait of Alexander Popham who was prominant in the Civil War (the real one during the 17th century not the American one). He is depicted wearinng a kastana so there must have been quite a trade. Interestingly, the English continused to make hunting hangers with a sort of 'dragon-head' hilt that seems to have been inspired by kastana, well into the 18th century.

Ian Bottom;ey

Not even part of the topic or the conversation but noted you have 39 posts and ranked as new explorer but if you are the Ian Bottomly from the UK that I had conversations many years ago and used to work at the museum as well as others you are a long way from a new explorer !!  IF so welcome back and we are lucky to have you rejoin !!!!!

[Bugyotsuji]

The same Ian, I believe, and for me his comment is on-topic.

[Bazza]

16 hours ago, vajo said:

Bazza you mean this?

Thats true i also have not seen invers bohi on nihonto.

 

Vajo, yes, that's what I meant, though your Yamato Tegai pic with short 'inverse' bohi shows one should never say never with Nihontou!!

 

BaZZa.

[Brian]

5 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

The same Ian, I believe, and for me his comment is on-topic.

I think Brian means his own comment isn't on topic, but he wanted to ask about Ian....
yes, we are very lucky to have had Ian on board now for many years. I wish he's choose an appropriate avator.

[Bugyotsuji]

1 hour ago, Brian said:

I think Brian means his own comment isn't on topic, but he wanted to ask about Ian....
yes, we are very lucky to have had Ian on board now for many years. I wish he's choose an appropriate avator.

Oops 😅 mea culpa.   Apologies Brian (x2).

[vajo]

My friend sold that sword now to another collector for 600 EUR he told me. 

Some info about the provinience. It comes out from an old french household in the city of nizza. 

He didn't ask the seller (older women) how she get it. 

 

Overall i find that sword very interesting. 

 

[IBot]

Yes, I'm afraid it is I.  I definitely wouldn't use a photo of myself as there is enough pain and suffering in the world without my ugly mug appearing here. I'm quite happy just to put the odd comment up with a vague blob as ID.

Ian Bottomley

[Brian]

42 minutes ago, IBot said:

Yes, I'm afraid it is I.  I definitely wouldn't use a photo of myself as there is enough pain and suffering in the world without my ugly mug appearing here. I'm quite happy just to put the odd comment up with a vague blob as ID.

Ian Bottomley

It bugs me :-)
I'd like everyone to have a personal avatar. Perhaps pm me a pic of your favorite item or kabuto or whatever, and I'll edit it as your avator? Or the logo of whatever museum you choose...or anything else. I'm happy to resize and edit pics for people to use. You deserve better than a blob

[Dave R]

14 hours ago, vajo said:

My friend sold that sword now to another collector for 600 EUR he told me. 

Some info about the provinience. It comes out from an old french household in the city of nizza. 

He didn't ask the seller (older women) how she get it. 

 

Overall i find that sword very interesting. 

 

 

 A French provenance would fit well with it being a Vietnamese sword.