Signed Yamato works

[Jacques D.]

First of all I must correct a mistake I made. I quoted Clive Sinclaire as the author of an unsigned article and it turns out that this article is not by Clive Sinclaire's hand but by PaulB. Once again I offer him my humblest apologies even if a similarity in writing style misled me.


Soshu den, the experts speak of different periods because this tradition is probably the one that has seen the most evolutions (it is because of these evolutions that I say that we can only speak of Gokaden for the first generations) but there is one constant and that is the kitae. In Soshu, apart from one or two exceptions (Go Yoshihiro), there are no straight grains. If you see nagare or masame in a hada of a blade signed by Tametsugu, it means that this sword is Mino den. Habuchi is also important even if the difference is sometimes tenuous for the period concerned the nioiguchi of Soshu-den is not subdued

 

Jean

Nagayama's page 216

 

[reinhard]

"I thought I would make a new thread for the subject for not to derail that one from it's original topic."

 

You really thought this was going to work as simple as that?

Signed Yamato blades > Shizu > Tametsugu > Soshu style in no time.

Wake up, Yussi, this is NMB!

 

reinhard

 

 

 

 

 

[Hoshi]

 

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Soshu den, the experts speak of different periods because this tradition is probably the one that has seen the most evolutions (it is because of these evolutions that I say that we can only speak of Gokaden for the first generations) but there is one constant and that is the kitae. In Soshu, apart from one or two exceptions (Go Yoshihiro), there are no straight grains. If you see nagare or masame in a hada of a blade signed by Tametsugu, it means that this sword is Mino den. Habuchi is also important even if the difference is sometimes tenuous for the period concerned the nioiguchi of Soshu-den is not subdued

 

This isn't reflected in reality - "Itame that tends to nagare" or "itame that is mixed with nagare" are common terminologies used in Setsumei describing Soshu Joko. Sadamune, Masamune, Go, Norishige, Sa and so on. 

 

"The nioguchi is not subdued" - again, second tier soshu bucket attribution have, at times, subdued nioguchi described in their setsumei. This goes for Tametsugu, but also Sanekage and others. It is expressed in context of the in comparison to the clarity (saeru, often expressed as "bright and clear") of the top master, and serves as one of a few other differentiating factors (e.g., from Norishige to the Sanekage bucket). Note that "bright and clear" is not restricted to Soshu, but is a general trait of grandmasters and a point carrying the highest degree of appreciation. Also note that 'subdued' is a tricky term to capture in English translation, and has different meanings in different contexts. First gen (Norishige, Masamune, Yukimitsu, and all the forgotten ones...) have broadly different styles and artistic expressions. This is part of the beauty - they were all grandmasters and created their own unique styles. 

 

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With Soshu, it is much more about the colour, the purity (and wetness) of the steel, the elegance of jinie, the presence or not of chikei (and also size), the way sunagashi and kinsuji show up (more elegant than the cruder Mino work). As you move into later Soshu (Hiromitsu, Akihiro et al), the elegance is starting to dissipate and we see some gaudier work. But the problem is all of this needs to be seen in hand an and oshigata cannot render it adequately. 

 

When you know you know. And let's not forget the archetypical midare hamon. The Midare Shintogo is considered the first piece of Soshu work, and the earliest iteration of the tradition. high-class chickei, perfection in the nie, uroi kitae (wetness), midare hamon - these are the archetypical traits. And as Michael rightly points out, it all falls off quickly after just two generations, never to be seen again. 

[Rivkin]

Makes sense if one compares Yukimitsu with Tametsugu, but if I remember correctly (oshigata included) has 1357 and 1369 signed as Etchu and 1374 as Mino. He has to be compared to contemporaries from 1360-1370. Late Sadamune, Takagi, Hasebe, Hiromitsu, Nobukuni, shodai Masahiro, Etchu school like Kaneyuki. 

The only way to believe they don't have masame is to employ an old trick - its nagare, kinsuji or chikei when its the first class school. If papers say Yamato we don't have to call it nagare.

Shintogo has ayasugi-masame going through the entire blade, that's kinsuji. Sadamune can have similar kinsuji 50+cm long, and these blades usually do have "straight segments" in shinogi ji...

One also will need to call Hasebe "Yamashiro", since masame is his kantei trait, discard in a similar way Nobukuni, forget about shodai Masahiro, believe that the entire Etchu group centered around Tametsugu is not Soshu.

 

Quite honestly a lot of work. I much rather just call it masame if its long and straight.

 

[Jean]

The blade has Mitsu mine.

[reinhard]

On 11/15/2022 at 3:14 AM, Rivkin said:

The only way to believe they don't have masame is to employ an old trick - its nagare, kinsuji or chikei when its the first class school.

It seems to me that you have a limited understanding of the term "masame".

Masame is clearly defined as undisturbed layers of steel as in the work of  Yamato Hosho, Sendai Kunikane and some ShinShinTo smith emulating the style. Hada with a tendency to straightness is called "masake" or masa-gokoro.

On 11/15/2022 at 3:14 AM, Rivkin said:

Shintogo has ayasugi-masame going through the entire blade, that's kinsuji.

This is utter nonsense.

 

On 11/15/2022 at 3:14 AM, Rivkin said:

One also will need to call Hasebe "Yamashiro", since masame is his kantei trait,

 

No, it's not,

Straight, or masame-like structures appear only near the ha or the mune.

On 11/15/2022 at 3:14 AM, Rivkin said:

 

Quite honestly a lot of work. I much rather just call it masame if its long and straight.

You've got a long way to go.

On 11/15/2022 at 3:14 AM, Rivkin said:

 

 

[Jean]

Extensive article on Tametsugu showing the Soshu influence on his work. The opposite should be surprising considering his teacher.

 

https://nihonto-com.translate.goog/echizen-no-kami-fujiwara-tametsugu-and-the-early-soshu-school-越前国藤原為継/?_x_tr_sl=en&_x_tr_tl=fr&_x_tr_hl=fr&_x_tr_pto=sc