Itō, Ito or Ido?

[PietroParis]

Hi All,

 

I am trying to understand a sentence in Markus Sesko's Genealogies (see here) stating that my beloved tsuba maker Tatsutoshi was "founder of the Ito school (井戸)". Sesko also adds that "This name might also be pronounced as Ido".

 

I was quite confused because, according to this site, the well-known "Bushū-Itō" and "Odawara-Itō" schools were founded by two artists, Itō Jinzayemon and Itō Masatsugu, who do not seem to be related to Tatsutoshi. Those schools  have separate entries on pages 111 and 112 of Sesko's book, to which unfortunately I do not have access.

 

Then I thought I had understood that Ito/Ido (井戸) and Itō (伊藤) are in fact two different names, so maybe the school supposedly founded by Tatsutoshi has nothing to do with Bushū-Itō (see here). However, I have now found a NBTHK certificate that refers to 武州井戸派, i.e. Bushū-Ito/Ido school!

 

 

 

This is for comparison a certificate referring to the (more usual?) 武州伊藤派 Bushū-Itō school:

 

 

Now I would like to understand: are 井戸 and 伊藤 interchangeable, or are these two certificates referring to different schools?

 

And most importantly (for me): how (if at all) is the Ito/Ido (井戸) school supposedly founded by Tatsutoshi related to the Bushū-Itō" and/or "Odawara-Itō" schools?

 

Thanks in advance for any help!

[SteveM]

I saw this on your other thread and started digging a bit;

 

From triangulating a few sources on the internet and in Wakayama, there are various schools branching off from the main Bushū Itō (武州伊藤) school, including Akao, the Odawara Itō, and the Ido. Itō and Ido indeed sound confusingly similar in English, but they are distinct groups. 

 

The Ido (井戸) family is a sub-branch of the Bushū Itō (武州伊藤) school, and both of these groups are centered in Edo/Tōkyō/Bushū.

 

Odawara is a castle town southwest of Edo, and the Odawara Itō seem to be another sub-branch of the Bushū-Itō who either moved down to Odawara, or they were artisans who originally lived there and were licensed to use the Itō name. 

 

The Ido school gets established near the end of the Edo period around Bunka (early 1800s) . Before Tatsutoshi there was Yasutoshi (保寿), but the relationship between Yasutoshi and Tatsutoshi is unclear. The Ido school tends to use toshi (寿) as the second character of their names, with each artist choosing a different 1st character. Wakayama only lists 5 main artists from this school.

 

Wakayama notes the scarcity of written records of these various branches, and says further research is required. 

https://www.n-p-s.net/tsuba-history.html

[PietroParis]

Many thanks Steve for this precious information!!!

 

Sesko's Genealogy (see here) lists Yasutoshi as a "grandchild" of Tatsutoshi. I suppose there is a great deal of guesswork involved anyway...

[SteveM]

OK. Here is the bit from Wakayama's  "Tōsō Kinkō" that says Yasutoshi is from Bunka (1804-1818), and Tatsutoshi is from Bunsei era (1818-1830). Maybe Markus has access to info that Wakayama doesn't. (Wakayama himself says there is a dearth of info on this school, so I can guess he was working with limited reference material in the pre-internet days. He also says this lineage involves some guesswork.)

 

Anyway I leave this here for reference, and should anyone have new info we can revisit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

This may help, or confuse, from Kiyomizu. See line on right for Tatsutoshi.

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

As to Yasutoshi…, there must have been at least two 保寿 Yasutoshi but the left one of these seems to fit better.

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Kiyomizu

 

 

[PietroParis]

9 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

This may help, or confuse, from Kiyomizu. See line on right for Tatsutoshi.

 

OK, you like to make us non-Japanese readers earn our bread on google translate...

 

長寿   Tatsutoshi 

江戸    Edo

赤尾家 の 門人井戸忠七,  disciple of the Akao family, Ido Chūshichi

本所森下町住   Lives in Honjo Morishita-cho
文政  Bunsei (1818-1830)

 

According to Sesko, 忠七 Chūshichi was Tatsutoshi's real name, it would then seem that 井戸 Ido was his family name. It stands to reason that he and his students form the Ido school.

 

The left entry on Yasutoshi is much less specific:

 

保寿  Yasutoshi

近江  Ōmi (former province located in present-day Shiga Prefecture, see here)

江府住 保寿 作  Kofu-ju Yasutoshi Saku  (his standard signature?)

伊藤一派   Itō school

 

Nothing here points to him being a student of Tatsutoshi. I am just puzzled by the fact that Shiga prefecture is relatively far from Tokyo, why would he sign "Kofu-ju"? Or maybe it means that he was originally from Ōmi and then moved to Edo?

[Bugyotsuji]

Kōfu is in Tottori.
江符 Efu (or Gōfu) is the Edo/Tokyo area yes, but could that 近江 have been a misprint for 遠江 Tōtōmi?

[PietroParis]

2 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Kōfu is in Tottori.
江符 Efu (or Gōfu) is the Edo/Tokyo area yes, but could that 近江 have been a misprint for 遠江 Tōtōmi?

 

I am certainly not in the position to argue, but many times in this forum I have read that 江符 can equally be read Efu or Kōfu (both meaning Edo). See e.g. here.

[Bugyotsuji]

I was just trying to move your man Yasutoshi a little closer to Odawara! 
 

PS Your translation work is admirable, Pietro. 

[SteveM]

Hello Pietro

You miss the era mentioned on the bottom of the entry to Yasutoshi: Bunka (文化) 1804～, which places him before Tatsutoshi.

Anyway, I think the lineage remains an open question until we get more info. 

 

and - watch out for typos (which I hesitate to mention, as I generate a mountain of typos myself). But I thought these were relevant to the case as we are trying to pinpoint some details. 

 

長寿　→　辰寿

江符　→　江府

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Aaaarrrrgggghhhh… 江符　江府… that one was my typo, Steve! 

[PietroParis]

1 hour ago, SteveM said:

and - watch out for typos (which I hesitate to mention, as I generate a mountain of typos myself). But I thought these were relevant to the case as we are trying to pinpoint some details. 

長寿　→　辰寿

 

Of course, how embarrassing that I would screw up the main guy's name!!!

[ROKUJURO]

Pietro,

and then there is O-IDO....to complete the confusion!