Tang Mei help

[AlphaRaider]

Just picked this sword up today at a local show in Colorado. This will not be sold and is now apart of my personal collection.  

 

Would anyone here be able to help with translation. I tried Google translate with no help.

 

I'm currently at a show but can post additional pictures if needed. It's only signed on one side.

 

Thanks for your help.

 

- Jonathan Hoff

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

Jonathan,

it reads BISHÛ OSAFUNE SUKESADA.

I have no books on swords MEI, but I think there were many BISHÛ SUKESADA, so not sure about the era (in case the signature is authentic at all, which is not always the case).

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Markus Sesko lists these two "Osafune Sukesada":

 

SUKESADA (助定), Bunmei (文明, 1469-1487), Bizen – “Bishū Osafune Sukesada” (備州長船助定)
SUKESADA (助定), Daiei (大永, 1521-1528), Bizen – “Bizen no Kuni Osafune-jū Sukesada” (備前国長船住助定), “Bishū Osafune Sukesada” (備州長船助定), student of Hikobei no Jō Sukesada (彦兵衛尉祐定), mostly a chū-suguha-hitsure

[DoTanuki yokai]

Im sure Markus Sesko list far more Sukesada because they are around 60 smiths signing Sukesada till the late edo period. 
More pictures of the blade could help estimate the age. 

[AlphaRaider]

I'm currently attending a show and can take better pictures when I'm at home Monday. Here are a couple of the full sword from my cell phone.

 

 

- Jonathan Hoff

[ROKUJURO]

Jonathan,

the SUGATA shows a relatively shallow SORI, but that doesn't mean automatcally KANBUN JIDAI.

Without visible HADA and HAMON an assessment is difficult. 

[AlphaRaider]

Would this blade be worth a polishing to find out more and restore or just kept as is?  

[ROKUJURO]

Jonathan,

that is exactly the enigma!

How much is the market value of such a blade now and after a traditional polish versus the cost of polishing (in this condition probably above $ 2.000.--)?

If you have the means and want to keep the blade, then polishing is an option. In case you have to look at the resale value, you will have to caculate.
 

[AlphaRaider]

That makes sense, Im not sure what the fair market value for this type of sword in this condition is.

I paid the vender what another member believed was a fair price for the sword after discussing it with him over the phone. The vendor originally wanted $1,000 but I was able to get it much cheaper.

I have how ever seen multiple listings In the past few days that contain this mei style and a few similar ones that have listed from $1,300-$16,000.

 

In its current state it would need all new or age correct fittings as well. I think it would be rather neat all completed.

[SteveM]

Hi Jonathan, what is the length (nagasa) of the blade? Looks like its probably a wakizashi?

[AlphaRaider]

I'll get a measurement this evening for you when I get some pictures done.

[Mark S.]

Some ‘general guidelines’ regarding these signatures.  Please remember there are always exceptions to nihonto ‘rules’ but lots of good info and lots of leads to other research.
 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/21234-bizen-and-bishu-signature/

[AlphaRaider]

It took a bit longer then I expected to get back to you with the measurements. Hopefully I measured everything correctly.  If there are other measurements needed let me know.

The nagasa is 20 & 5/8 inches ( 20.625in )  ( 52.3 centimeters  )

The Nakego length is 5 & 1/16 inches in length. ( 12.8 centimeters )

The Sori is approximately 18 centimeters.

 

I included some pictures I took this evening. 

 

[b.hennick]

Do you mean 1.8cm? I have never seen a sori of 18 cm (over 7 inches)!

[AlphaRaider]

7 hours ago, b.hennick said:

Do you mean 1.8cm? I have never seen a sori of 18 cm (over 7 inches)!

ohh man, well now you've seen one...

 

anyways you are probably correct, looking at the tape measure I used it was not the correct measurement. Sadly nothing around me to measure it correctly. I'll go to the store after I finish up the gun show  tomorrow and get a correct measurement. thanks for the catch

[AlphaRaider]

I picked up a caliper and a measuring stick hopefully this helps a bit more in determining things. 

 

The Sori is 16.25mm

The Motohaba is 30.40mm

The Sakihaba is 21.55mm

The Motokasane is 7.21mm 

The Sakikasane  is 4.87mm

The Nakego length is 122.95mm ( 4.84 inches ) 

The nagasa is 20.62 inches

 

Anything else please let me know.

 

 

 

[SteveM]

It looks like someone has already tried to give it a very amateur polish job, and has ruined it. It would need to be looked at by a professional Japanese sword polisher to see if it could be revived. And, given the cost and the potential value proposition of an unauthenticated wakizashi with a Sukesada name on it, it would be a very risky undertaking. Or, as we like to say, it would be a "labor of love", meaning you'd be doing it for the love of the sword, and not in the hope that you could recoup any investment made. 

 

If you are just starting on your voyage into the world of nihontō, I'd say don't be too anxious to buy a sword. There are a ton of good Japanese swords out there. Unpapered, out-of-polish wakizashi are kind of at the low end of the quality/desirability spectrum. This one is even more handicapped because its not just out of polish, but it looks like it has an amateur polish that needs to be remedied. 

[AlphaRaider]

Thanks for your response. you do have some good points.

 

I've still extremely new to the scene, during the past 4 months I've bought 5 swords. fake ones, real ones, ww2 ones, so far its been a good learning experience in all honesty. I now own a few books as well.  I do really like the sword, I'm not really looking to make it nice to sell just for personal collecting.

 

I've seen some of them demand fair value in the market so spending a few thousand to polish isn't too terrible at the end of the day if I was lucky enough to have a 100% authentic sword.

 

I don't have any polishers In my area that I'm aware of, but I've been checking out people online. guess that's the major factor to decide is to polish or not.

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

8 hours ago, AlphaRaider said:

....I don't have any polishers In my area that I'm aware of, ......

Jonathan,

with very few exceptions they are all in Japan, so chances are slim to find one in your neighbourhood. 

Concerning the market value: It is roughly what you paid for it. Other sellers might have attached a slightly higher price tag, but that is about the value. If you have a close look at the offers of our professional dealers here in the NMB, you will find that you can get swords in this range (signed WAKIZASHI without certification papers, but in better condition than yours) for $ 2.000.-- or a bit more, SHIRA-SAYA or even simple KOSHIRAE included.  

[AlphaRaider]

I paid $500 for this sword in its current condation with Saya and handle.  No other items were included. 

 

For that price I'm quite happy with it, I've bought all the extra fittings and should have everything by Thursday. That way it can at least be stored correctly and have all the temp parts till it gets redone should that be the route I go. 

 

Thanks for the suggestions.

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

Jonathan,

a 'correct' storage would be in a SHIRA-SAYA (after polish and probably with new HABAKI), and ideally stored in the darkness of a drawer of a Japanese TANSU (or any other all wooden board) to prevent UV-rays, oxygen and moisture from attacking the blade.

 

[AlphaRaider]

9 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Jonathan,

a 'correct' storage would be in a SHIRA-SAYA (after polish and probably with new HABAKI), and ideally stored in the darkness of a drawer of a Japanese TANSU (or any other all wooden board) to prevent UV-rays, oxygen and moisture from attacking the blade.

 

That's pretty incredible actually, I wasn't aware people take it to those degrees. That does make me happy to know people are out there and actually preserving them.

I guess I was thinking everyday storage as in wrapped in cloth and in a protective pelican case, or padded soft case, or the plexiglass display cases as I would like them displayed possibly. I travel a bit with the swords I've acquired most are taken to our gun shop daily that I manage. I've taken them to multiple instate and out of state gun shows and just displayed them for people to view. People seemed to enjoy that quite a bit.

 

So if it will be "stored" that makes sense but I guess that's not exactly what I would be after currently at least. I wasn't using the correct terminology or explaining my self correctly it seems.

So do most people get their sword polished only for selling or preserving? I understand there are different levels of polish but would some of the other options work or would one frankly just have to get a full polish? ( due to the condition  of the blade )

 

People seem to have enjoyed this sword as it is but I bet they would be even more excited if it was polished and looked pretty. Like I said I'm not really interested in selling it, I would however like to get it in a proper condition if possible and display it for people.

 

I do have a question if most polishers are in Japan, wouldn't my sword be in a sense confiscated from me because its over 100 yrs old ( presuming its 100% real) so if I sent it over seas it would not be able to be returned to me to my understanding. If that is the case do I search for a Japanese sword polisher in the states that was from Japan vs. American or does that even matter as long as they have studied or have proper work?

[b.hennick]

Your sword would not be confiscated. They do not do that.  100 years for a sword is quite young. You would need an agent to take care of importing the sword into Japan and arranging for export of the blade after the work is done. Usually when  sword is polished it also probably needs a new habaki and a shirasaya. Many are submitted for papers before the blade is returned to you. Every part of the process costs money. The yen has gone down considerably so now is probably a great time to get work done.

[AlphaRaider]

Thanks for the blazing fast response Barry.

 

That's reassuring, is that something that could be done in the next few months or is there a waiting list or demand for a certain polisher vs another?

 

Is there a general price for the whole process or a place you recommend to find out about the process and the cost. Ive found a few people in the states, most had waiting list, some had pricing but it was based on an inspection of the blade to determine final price.

[Franco D]

Fyi,

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/files/file/36-collecting-nihontō-–-what-how-and-who/

 

[Brian]

Complete myth about the Japanese confiscating swords. There are literally tens of thousands of swords going back and forth from Japan and everywhere, all the time. And they age all the way up to 900 years old. NOTHING gets confiscated. It's a formality.
There are a few qualified polishers in the USA..not many. Usually there is a waiting period. There aren't really levels of polish. There is either a full polish, or no polish. Touch up polishes are generally amateur-done, although I guess there is a place for them.

Remember that a proper polish can be $150 per inch upwards. So don't do it unless necessary. There are some good words of advice in the FAQ above the forum.

[Bruce Pennington]

Don't know current wait times, but I waited 18 months before my Mantetsu got in.  And considering Brian's post concerning Current Spate of Mail Thefts of swords coming back/to the USA from Japan, I'd think twice about sending to them and go for a US polisher.

[b.hennick]

The wait list for fully trained polishers in North America is long. Sending to Japan could be quicker especially if you will be sending the blade to shinsa. 

[AlphaRaider]

Thank you all for your comments and thoughts. Thanks again for the advice received. 

 

For now I'll keep the blade and put it in current fittings and Saya and leave the blade as is. I'll start looking into the process and cost for polishing in Japan + getting it papered.