Help with tanto age

[mwalt60]

Hello, 

This is my first Japanese blade and my first post as well. I've been trying to study and learn for the last 2 weeks after diving head first on a gun auction what I normally stick with haha but my brother in law convinced me to get into Japanese swords so I did. And well this is what I picked up either good or bad.

The furniture to me looks edo but I have not seen any with the almost silver plated roping around it. Brother in law and a few of his friends think the tanto could be from the 1450-1550's but say the Mei is not the origional that it was written at a more recent date. But the more close you look it could possibly be a Mei under the hole unless my eyes are playing trick on me.

Came with a two piece habaki the one piece almost silverish in color as well.

Also confusing to me is the one line down the Mei side the shinogi? And then the other side had a fatter almost blood groove( not sure of the proper term) I couldn't seem to find a matching style for that. 

 

So realisticly I dove head first and now I'm trying to learn to much at once haha

 

So any help is appreciated or any lessons I can learn from any of you good or bad as well. 

 

After reading rules I wanted to state that I do not purchase items with any intent to sell. Everything I purchase gos into my personal collection which I call my savings account🤣 although wife doesn't agree. Just wanted to clarify on that

 

Thanks mark

 

[mwalt60]

[Alex A]

Hi Mark,

 

Think your brother and friends may be correct on age.

 

The carvings are Horimono

 

The blade has seen some polishes. It shows signs of wear, appears there is a remnent carving under the thick Bo-hi, hard to tell from images.

 

The thinner carving looks to be quite worn

 

Possibly masame hada mixed in within the blade, maybe, which may help you with a school. Need really good high res pics to see for sure. 

 

The blade is also worn at the hamachi.

 

Horimono like this was common back then with schools such as Bizen, not that im saying it is Bizen as the blade requires a bit more research.

 

Cheers

 

 

[DoTanuki yokai]

Under the hole is the first kanji of the signature that reads Bizen Kuni Ju TadaMitsu. 
 

Why do you think the Mei is later added ? 

[Matsunoki]

Overall that looks a nice Tanto. Can we see a few images of the whole blade (both sides) in decent lighting please?

[Rivkin]

Tanto is Muromachi, for the mei evaluation much better photographs of the blade would be of value. Without opening the books there is nothing absolutely criminal with the mei, I would check the placement (center) against the books for various generations taking in mind not the most common sugata here, but I think whether it matches the work is much more important.

[mwalt60]

Here are some pics I have grom the auction site I purchased it from I will have to take some more maybe tonight or tomorrow. Thank you all for your input I need to get some reference books as well I just picked one up off ebay called Japanese daggers by: Suzuki 

[Jussi Ekholm]

I would be skeptical of the signature, as it lacks Osafune. For various Tadamitsu there are commonly 備前国住長船忠光 - Bizen kuni jū Osafune Tadamitsu and - 備州長船忠光 Bishū Osafune Tadamitsu. I did a quick search and could not find a single legitimate mei of Bizen kuni jū Tadamitsu without Osafune (備前国住忠光).

[Jean]

I also checked in the « Japanese sword smiths  » book (by Markus Sesko) and agree with Jussi.

 

concerning sue Bizen mei, here is an opinion written by Darcy:

 

Quote:

 

Gimei or not?: post #27 Darcy 

 

 

The first smith that seems to have done this is Kunimune but it was not a habit. He has some examples that read "Kunimune Bizen Kuni Ju Osafune". All of the Juyo blades though are Nijimei with the exception of the Nakahara Kunimune blades.

 

Sukemitsu in Bun'an (1444) is not recorded by Fujishiro as signing "Bizen Kuni Ju Osafune" but only using the Bishu style signature.

 

The first smiths doing this by habit seems to have been Munemitsu (Bunmei, 1469) and Katsumitsu (Bunmei) and then Hikobeinojo Sukesada (Entoku). So it appears to have been something which comes up between these generations (Sukemitsu to Munemitsu/Katsumitsu).

 

Fujishiro remarks on the habit as Osafune being used as a family name under the Kiyomitsu entry. He comments also under Munemitsu that "Osafune is the name of a place, but considered from the point that Osafune is inscribed after Bizen Kuni Ju, this means that Osafune is used like a surname. This example also appears in others of late Bizen" (i.e. Sue Bizen).

 

The latest entry in the koto period which follows this pattern is for Yukikane and Harumitsu (Tensho). Harumitsu also signed unusually with Bishu Ju Osafune and Bushi Zen no Kuni Ju Osafune. He seems to have not always used the Osafune though.

 

Hichibei Sukesada in the Shinto period (late 1600s) also used "Bizen Kuni Ju Osafune". The rest of his line seems to have continued to do this as there are entries in Kawachi no Kami Sukesada in 1688, and Godai Sukesada (Hichibei) 1751.

 

Yokoyama Sukekane in the Shinshinto period is back to signing "Bizen Osafune Ju" (Keio, 1865) as does Sukenao (1854), Sukenaga (1830), and others I assume.

 

My conclusion (which can also be picked up from several other books) is:

 

1. from Bunmei on, Osafune works in the Koto period, the rule of thumb is that Ju precedes Osafune.

 

2. if the order is not reversed, then the blade is most likely gimei

 

3. no general rule in swords is absolutely certain -- if only for the fact that we have certainly lost works so potential dissenting examples that break the rules have possibly been lost AND Japanese habit is to eliminate examples that break the rules. This further distorts the rule in that dissenting examples may seem to be more in the minority than they may have been at some point in the past, which means that conclusion #3 here needs to be respected (bearing in mind that it's a general rule itself!).

 

4. the reverse ordering clearly needs to be kept in mind in the Shinto period as well for Osafune smiths though it is not clear how tightly they kept to the habit without doing a full study of smiths more obscure than appear in Fujishiro. "

 

Unquote

[mwalt60]

I was told it read Bizen no Kuni tadamitsu. That the Mei is no good and not showing.

May still be Sue-Bizen blade, late muromachi bizen but not a real tadamistu.

[mwalt60]

But am I wrong that it looks like a Mei under the punched hole. More so at the bottom of it?

[Brian]

19 minutes ago, mwalt60 said:

But am I wrong that it looks like a Mei under the punched hole. More so at the bottom of it?

That's the first kanji of Bizen...

[Jacques]

Bizen or Hizen kuni Tadamitsu as Nihonto meikan lists one in Kanei ?