John C Posted October 23, 2022 Author Report Posted October 23, 2022 Jimmy: Thank you for the assessment. My initial thoughts were the same; that it was probably gimei and might even be made by a showa smith (reference the SE Kokura mark on the mune). The consensus however, of which you are among them, is that it is an older blade. Not sure why someone would gimei an unknown smith. Doesn't seem too productive. But then again, maybe they figured any signature would sell. John C.
SteveM Posted October 23, 2022 Report Posted October 23, 2022 34 minutes ago, John C said: Not sure why someone would gimei an unknown smith. 1. Lower level swords with any name, even an obscure one, tend to be more attractive than low-level mumei blades. On the other hand, a low-level blade with a big name attached to it will get instantly flagged as gimei. Like a painting at a garage sale with the name "Rembrandt" on it. An unsuspecting novice buyer might be fooled, but it wont fool anybody in the sword world. So if someone is going to forge a low-level blade, its best to attach a fairly unknown name to it. 2. Military blades were unable to be registered, and therefore unable to be bought and sold in Japan. A military blade might have its markings erased, and be tarted up to look like an antique blade, in order for it to be registered, and then bought or sold in Japan. (Or exported out of Japan). Those are just two reasons a sword might be forged with an unknown name it. There are probably more. One of the toughest lessons for the newcomer to this hobby is to learn to ignore the name and look at the sword itself. If you can get your hands on a good reference book, something like Connoisseurs Book of Japanese Swords, you can start to get a feel for how deep this hobby is. 2
John C Posted October 23, 2022 Author Report Posted October 23, 2022 Steve: Thank you for the tip. That book is currently on Amazon for almost 1,000 dollars! I'll have to wait for a sale. In the meantime, I appreciate the advice and direction given on NMB. As someone who is new to this, learning from those who are experienced is a must. John C.
Nihontocollector752 Posted October 23, 2022 Report Posted October 23, 2022 Karma has nothing to do with this obscure sword. Someone once upon a time needed to sell it and put an under the radar name on it, removed some markings or stamps and got a buyer. The OP is still refusing to place pictures that show the sugata in form with kantei via pictures and or any meaningful pictures of the hataraki. What are we supposed to do? Oh wait lets aim for a kantei over mekugi ana that no one knows anything about. Brilliant, just brilliant.
Alex A Posted October 23, 2022 Report Posted October 23, 2022 As said earlier, when i see a slender blade it always gives me concerns This blade is only approx 2.5cm width at the hamachi with an healthy lot left on at the hamachi, Its a possibility this is a late Edo tourist piece. Ive seen them, where smiths want to save material and just put together something that a tourist will go home with. In fact, i bought one at an arms fair, puzzled me for a while. Not certain and don't want to start going on about hamachi again, but you have to try and see the full picture. With all the details addeds, makes a difference. That had a nakago that looked like it had been messed with too, bit of an odd shape. Something about the hamon too which reminds me of late Edo Bizen type. Come across boys days/chigosahi swords that look similar, they were made by late Edo Bizen schools. Mumei, with a ji- mei added.. Slender nakago too. Though, just a thought and not sure yet.
Nihontocollector752 Posted October 23, 2022 Report Posted October 23, 2022 Actually the hamon is very close to Takada, remember they were heavily influenced by Bizen and Mino and could replicate quite a few styles.
Alex A Posted October 23, 2022 Report Posted October 23, 2022 Yes, agree, and that has been my thought for a long time in this thread As said, i was just considering other possibilities. Its the dimensions and hamachi throwing in a curve ball
Jacques D. Posted October 23, 2022 Report Posted October 23, 2022 Steve is totally right. Personally I have a problem with this hamon, it doesn't look like what was done in the Taira Takada school at that time (suguha was in the majority and some kataochi gunome for the Bizen inspired blades, also some hitatsura) and from what I can see it has a lot of flaws, does it have any hataraki? nie? nioi? Another thing, how is the sori? Saki, tori or koshi?
Alex A Posted October 23, 2022 Report Posted October 23, 2022 Takada worked in so many styles that it is hard to keep a track of. Sure ive seen a book somewhere that is purely based on their swords fooling folk as Bizen, may of been for sale at Touken Komachi if i remember correctly, mentioned it in an old Takada sold page
Nihontocollector752 Posted October 23, 2022 Report Posted October 23, 2022 Taira Takada no, Fujiwara Takada more likely ?
Alex A Posted October 23, 2022 Report Posted October 23, 2022 Jimmy, i have an issue with the hada Its not refined enough for examples i have. Though maybe with a more thorough search, who knows.
Nihontocollector752 Posted October 23, 2022 Report Posted October 23, 2022 I also feel the hada may have been chemically enhanced
Alex A Posted October 23, 2022 Report Posted October 23, 2022 On a bit of a side note, often found the biggest "headache" swords come from those of the late Edo. Was only looking at a sword the other day where the hamon absolutely screamed Yokoyama chogi with yakidashi but the hada was itame/masame, not the usual ko-itame. It can be a mystery minefield. Even the seller cant say who made it. Funnily enough, that looked to be a boys day sword, or birth/gift sword. small dimensions.
Nihontocollector752 Posted October 23, 2022 Report Posted October 23, 2022 Aren't day swords far smaller?
Alex A Posted October 23, 2022 Report Posted October 23, 2022 Pretty sure i saw one on a US sold page not so long ago, 45cm Another same size. 44.3cm http://nihonto.us/BOYS DAY SWORD CHI 17.htm
Jacques D. Posted October 23, 2022 Report Posted October 23, 2022 2 hours ago, Nihontocollector752 said: Taira Takada no, Fujiwara Takada more likely ? Fujiwara Takada are shinto smiths. That said, i must correct me; i said kataochi gunome instead koshi-no-hiraita midare and forgot ko notare. Note that in Bizen, koshi-no-hiraita of early Muromachi is different than the one of the second part of Muromachi (i wonder how many here are able to see the differences).
Jacques D. Posted October 23, 2022 Report Posted October 23, 2022 2 minutes ago, Alex A said: Pretty sure i saw one on a US sold page not so long ago, 45cm Another same size. 44.3cm http://nihonto.us/BOYS DAY SWORD CHI 17.htm You have to find a NBTHK papered one which is labelled boy day sword instead wakizashi.
Alex A Posted October 23, 2022 Report Posted October 23, 2022 Jacques, again, not spending all afternoon on the internet to please you. From memory, have a look at Eds sold page or the other, cant remember off the top of my head but the name Moses comes to memory. Dealers are not as pedantic as you on such matters as these type of swords are not so desirable and sell for low prices, so they dont want to spend money and time on them getting them papered. Spoke to Tsuruta San the other day, he confirmed what i just said. An example, see any papers for this gift tanto ?, even made by the guy that started Yokoyama Bizen. https://www.aoijapan.com/tantoyokoyama-ise-kami-sukehira/
Nihontocollector752 Posted October 23, 2022 Report Posted October 23, 2022 @Jacques D. yep Fujiwara Takada are shinto to shinshinto which have this variation of Hamon, it is not souley Bizen.
Jacques D. Posted October 23, 2022 Report Posted October 23, 2022 3 hours ago, Alex A said: Jacques, again, not spending all afternoon on the internet to please you. From memory, have a look at Eds sold page or the other, cant remember off the top of my head but the name Moses comes to memory. Dealers are not as pedantic as you on such matters as these type of swords are not so desirable and sell for low prices, so they dont want to spend money and time on them getting them papered. Spoke to Tsuruta San the other day, he confirmed what i just said. An example, see any papers for this gift tanto ?, even made by the guy that started Yokoyama Bizen. https://www.aoijapan.com/tantoyokoyama-ise-kami-sukehira/ OMG !!! 19.3 cm nagasa and you call the wakizashi discussed here (45 cm nagasa) a possible boy day sword ? Do you know the age of the children at this presentation? 7, 8 years old.. i add it's not papered You are definitely a troll. 2 hours ago, Nihontocollector752 said: @Jacques D. yep Fujiwara Takada are shinto to shinshinto which have this variation of Hamon, it is not souley Bizen. I speak about Muromachi Taira Takada school as Taira Takada doesn't exist in Shinto Shinshintoç times. Don't mix everything up
Alex A Posted October 23, 2022 Report Posted October 23, 2022 Jacques, i was making a point, i stated gift tanto. Done my best to be polite and friendly with you, but your intolerable You really are making this an awkward place to be, and I'm the troll No wonder some REAL educated GENTS don't post so much lately, i guess they are all tired and bored of your constant desire to be confrontational Anyways, I'm out of this thread too, before i say something that gets me kicked out.
John C Posted October 23, 2022 Author Report Posted October 23, 2022 10 hours ago, Nihontocollector752 said: The OP is still refusing to place pictures that show the sugata in form with kantei via pictures and or any meaningful pictures of the hataraki. Jimmy: As I stated in an earlier post, I tried to post a pic of the sugata, however the file size was too large and wouldn't load. Sorry for the inconvenience. I do realize the sword is an anomaly...that's why I'm here to get your opinion. You very well could be right on all accounts. I just don't know. I was hoping to learn from those who have been studying this for a while, so I do thank you for your assessment. I too always gave my students honest feedback; even when it was something they may not want to hear. John C.
Brian Posted October 23, 2022 Report Posted October 23, 2022 Google "free image resizer" There are plenty, and no file is incapable of being resized to fit easily and still have plenty of detail. 2
Jacques D. Posted October 24, 2022 Report Posted October 24, 2022 I know that to evaluate the validity of a mei you have to take the whole career of a swordsmith because the signature can evolve over time, but, we can only rely on the existing examples. SteveM found this one (that I missed in my research) and considering this mei we can logically deduce that the sword discussed here is gimei. http://kako.nipponto.co.jp/swords2/KT221558.htm 1 1
Matsunoki Posted October 24, 2022 Report Posted October 24, 2022 Sorry Brian!!!!!….I genuinely don’t understand so I’m asking. How can we logically deduce this sword is gimei based on a single comparison to a possiblly different smith? We can certainly guess it’s gimei…..but what if it’s another obscure smith that has not made it onto the radar? ……..or that smiths calligraphy changed over the years (quite common I believe)? I haven’t seen any factual evidence yet to support gimei but I agree it’s very doubtful this blade was forged by the smith Steve has kindly located. Steve….I totally agree with all that you said in your earlier post. ……But we still have no clear idea regarding the age of the blade and until we get full sugata images everything else is highly debatable. It will probably remain debatable even after that.
Jacques D. Posted October 24, 2022 Report Posted October 24, 2022 Until proven otherwise, there is no other swordsmith with this signature, and your elucidations will not change anything.
Matsunoki Posted October 24, 2022 Report Posted October 24, 2022 (edited) I’m not trying to change anything……just suggesting we don’t jump to unfounded unproven illogical conclusions. You refer to “my elucidations” - are you saying I’ve made things clear?……. What does it mean by elucidate? transitive verb/intransitive verb. If you elucidate something, you make it clear and easy to understand. [formal] Edited October 24, 2022 by Matsunoki Added text
Jacques D. Posted October 24, 2022 Report Posted October 24, 2022 I am only basing my opinion on facts and nothing else, we have a sword whose signature is authenticated by the NBTHK and nothing else. As the signature of the sword discussed here is totally different (not the same style of engraving, not the same tool) this sword can be declared gimei at least until proven otherwise. For the word elucidation, as I am not a native English speaker I made a mistake, I meant hare-brained ideas.
Matsunoki Posted October 24, 2022 Report Posted October 24, 2022 2 minutes ago, Jacques D. said: As the signature of the sword discussed here is totally different (not the same style of engraving, not the same tool) this sword can be declared gimei at least until proven otherwise. Wrong, - but it can certainly be be “declared” as doubtful - unless you put yourself on the same level as NBTHK. You are using one comparative example where there is no certainty that it is the same smith….a smith no-one seems to have ever heard or traced (until Steve found one sword) and yet you are reaching a defInite conclusion. Ignoring the actual calligraphy, the actual Mei is different 6 hours ago, Jacques D. said: I know that to evaluate the validity of a mei you have to take the whole career of a swordsmith because the signature can evolve over time By your own admission mei can change, especially as age advances. So do you know the whole career of whoever this smith is (or isn’t)?
Jacques D. Posted October 24, 2022 Report Posted October 24, 2022 Quote You are using one comparative example where there is no certainty that it is the same smith Until proven otherwise, there is no other swordsmith with this signature. Nihonto meikan is formal, it's up to you to prove that the book is wrong Quote By your own admission mei can change, especially as age advances. So do you know the whole career of whoever this smith is (or isn’t)? Troll !! We have only one copy of valid we do with what we have, we will not invent them
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