Matsunoki Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 3 hours ago, Jacques D. said: When I talk about Kazu-uchi mono I am talking about the smith not about this sword. 3 hours ago, Jacques D. said: The only reference to this smith that I could find both in my library (very well stocked) and on the net is a quotation in the nihonto meikan (photo attached) which means that he is a very small smith and not an artist. It is impossible to say with certainty that it is a gimei but to pass off a showato as an older sword knowing that one cannot verify the authenticity of the mei is not stupid and is conceivable Jacques 1. I thought that Kazu-ichi mono referred to actual swords not swordsmiths. Am I wrong? 2.Over the many hundreds of years there are thousands of smiths that would not qualify as “artists” but that doesn’t mean they didn’t make decent swords does it? ie swords well above the Kazu-uchi mono category 3. You are looking at exactly the same images as the rest of us……please re-read your own words as follows- “You have to rely on the clues you have, not on what you think you see on the pictures.” “When I don't know, I keep my mouth shut and I don't venture into wild theories.” “To be honest, you can't tell anything about a sword if you don't have it in your hand.” …..putting this sword forward as a possibly modified showato based on inadequate images seems a pretty wild and baseless theory to me and pretty stupid given that a good showato (probably gendaito based on what we can see) is worth more than a wakizashi by a minor smith.
Alex A Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 Jacques, it is early Edo. https://www.samuraishokai.jp/sword/22616.html As said, got better things do, you take a look about and you may be surprised
Alex A Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 10 minutes ago, Jacques D. said: This picture doesn't prove anything that you are right, the link would be preferable so that we could verify because I suspect you of being in bad faith and of falsifying the truth. I know that you don't have the necessary knowledge Jacques, this what you do. You sit on a very tall horse coming out with all kinds of riddles, like the Riddler off Batman and when you don't get your way you become insulting, like a spoilt brat You share stuff from books, i share stuff i see There is a difference, your lacking in knowing what is out there. 1
Jacques D. Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 Ok a tanto, so you compare tanto and katana, you confirm what i say about your knowledge and one example never made a generality we call that a straw-man. It would be different if you could provide us with dozens of examples, but that will be much more difficult. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man Early Edo period ? 160 years long ? It's all the Shinto Era. In fact you are a troll Worth seeing : https://www.aoijapan.com/katanamumeishowato/ 1
Alex A Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 Jacques, I find your ignorance astounding, really do. Do you not think out of the millions of blades produced that some made it all the way to the present day without being polished to death Some may have just seen a present day polish. Occasionally, real oddballs turn up that make you think, wow. As said, not spending all day looking for these oddballs to please you. Your very narrow minded.
Jacques D. Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 48 minutes ago, Matsunoki said: Jacques 1. I thought that Kazu-ichi mono referred to actual swords not swordsmiths. Am I wrong? 2.Over the many hundreds of years there are thousands of smiths that would not qualify as “artists” but that doesn’t mean they didn’t make decent swords does it? ie swords well above the Kazu-uchi mono category 3. You are looking at exactly the same images as the rest of us……please re-read your own words as follows- “You have to rely on the clues you have, not on what you think you see on the pictures.” “When I don't know, I keep my mouth shut and I don't venture into wild theories.” “To be honest, you can't tell anything about a sword if you don't have it in your hand.” …..putting this sword forward as a possibly modified showato based on inadequate images seems a pretty wild and baseless theory to me and pretty stupid given that a good showato (probably gendaito based on what we can see) is worth more than a wakizashi by a minor smith. You just need to know what is a kazu-uchi mono. A kazu-uchi mono is not crap it's a sword without artistic quality (you need years of serious study with hundreds of swords in hand to make the difference between them). A Sai-jo saku could made chumon-uchi and kazu-uchi mono, it depends on what the customer was willing to pay The size of the machi is a visible and serious clue; put in relation with the signature (everything is linked) it allows to deduce certain things. You just need to have the necessary experience and you can't buy it at the corner store. You and I are not playing in the same category anything else.
Jacques D. Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 5 minutes ago, Alex A said: Jacques, I find your ignorance astounding, really do. Do you not think out of the millions of blades produced that some made it all the way to the present day without being polished to death Some may have just seen a present day polish. Occasionally, real oddballs turn up that make you think, wow. As said, not spending all day looking for these oddballs to please you. Your very narrow minded. Bla bla bla
Alex A Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 What's even more crazy is that you have actually stated you have seen them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Re-read your posts................Kamakura
Matsunoki Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 4 minutes ago, Jacques D. said: The size of the machi is a visible and serious clue; Utter rubbish. Anyone (including me) could perform a passable machi okuri in a couple of hours with a couple of files. Simply reduce the depth of the nakago as it approaches the machi….at either (or both) the ha or the mune edge and simply file a new pair of machi. You could have them as deep/strong as you like depending on how much you reshape the nakago. Yes, the nakago would look slightly reworked and it would not be as perfect as a smith would do it but it isn’t rocket science….it is simply a metalworking skill. Just to be clear - I AM NOT ADVOCATING THIS AND WOULD NEVER DO IT MYSELF……but in the real world of old Japan I’m sure it was done imperfectly thousands of times…..especially on “ordinary” swords like this one. ….and how about practising what you preach by re-reading your own words in my post above. YOUR OWN WORDS.
Brian Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 C'mon guys. Use the ignore function or just keep quiet. Personal stuff is just boring and eventually no-one reads the posts anymore.
Alex A Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 Agree, lets get back to the sword and stop talking about holes and hamachi.
Matsunoki Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 Sorry Brian, sorry JohnC. …….just my sense of “fair play” getting the better of me.
John C Posted October 22, 2022 Author Report Posted October 22, 2022 Guys: I really do appreciate everyone's passion on this subject. It actually does help me figure this stuff out. Kind of like crowd sourcing, somewhere lies the truth about origin of this blade. I have included two additional pics (see my other threads for many other shots of this blade). One in the sun showing the hamon and one of the hamachi. Thank you all again for your efforts. John C.
Jussi Ekholm Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 Could you post a picture with the habaki on the sword? Does this sword have koshirae or a shirasaya? 1
Alex A Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 Also John, you need to help folk to help you. Folk wont search through other threads, need images including boshi
John C Posted October 22, 2022 Author Report Posted October 22, 2022 Jussi: I endeavored to take some pics with the habaki on. File sizes are too large to include all of them. The habaki is silver clad and seems to fit very well. Probably original to the sword. The koshirae that came with the blade were probably "after market" and I do not believe original to the blade, though I could be wrong. John C.
Matsunoki Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 Just saying what my brain thinks my eyes see on these two images - The nakago patina does not look faked or Showa to me. The nakago patina looks to get stronger as it heads towards the jiri with deeper corrosion ie older The upper nakago patina looks weaker (newer) especially above the upper ana…..probable machi okuri The nakago looks oddly skinny…..I still believe it has been reduced in depth to create new machi The hada does not look showato to me The hamon does not look showato to me Possible long yakidashi?…hamon appears to narrow and to become more suguha Not a bad sashikomi polish Decent soft metal kashira (does the fuchi match??) Menuki?? But JohnC we need better images - Lay the blade flat and take images from directly above it looking straight down on it, not at angles looking along the blade. We can then see the true shape. Closeups of both sides of kissaki showing boshi Maybe then the more experienced on here can contribute constructively.
Alex A Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 Not easy from the images but looks like some Masame in the shinogi-ji (in image above near habaki) Yo, with the hamon. You would need to confirm. Just looking for clues.
Jacques D. Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 2 hours ago, Matsunoki said: Anyone (including me) could perform a passable machi okuri in a couple of hours with a couple of files. Simply reduce the depth of the nakago as it approaches the machi….at either (or both) the ha or the mune edge and simply file a new pair of machi. You could have them as deep/strong as you like depending on how much you reshape the nakago. . Collector, you absolutely have no idea how machi-okuri is done.
Jacques D. Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 1 hour ago, John C said: Jussi: I endeavored to take some pics with the habaki on. File sizes are too large to include all of them. The habaki is silver clad and seems to fit very well. Probably original to the sword. The koshirae that came with the blade were probably "after market" and I do not believe original to the blade, though I could be wrong. John C. Please, Is the same photo without habaki possible ? + nagasa, sori, motohaba,
DoTanuki yokai Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 I would also check for Mizukage where the Hamon begins, this could really show us if the blade is Machi Okuri. But I’m also more interested in Sugata picture and Boshi. I thought this threat was done after we found the smith
Matsunoki Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 30 minutes ago, Jacques D. said: Collector, you absolutely have no idea how machi-okuri is done. Another uninformed massive assumption. But of course you are right Jacques, as usual. I will respect the request of our moderator and refrain from engaging with you further. Byeeeeeeeee🙂🙂🙂 1
John C Posted October 22, 2022 Author Report Posted October 22, 2022 Thank you all again for your expertise. Here are some requested photos of the kissaki. The file size of the overhead shots are too large to attach. I really appreciate this, guys. (sorry for the use of an old Ipad. It's all I have right now). John C.
John C Posted October 22, 2022 Author Report Posted October 22, 2022 Just to add...I cannot seem to capture the boshi very well in the pics. With the naked eye, however, it looks like ichimonji-kaeri (一文字返り). John C.
Alex A Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 Still without dimensions Looks really slender and always kind of careful around slender blades with opinions Actually, beginning to think boys day sword is even a possibility at 45cm and with whats available Difficult from whats available
John C Posted October 22, 2022 Author Report Posted October 22, 2022 Alex: Here's what I got for dimensions: Overall length 57.7cm; blade length 44.8cm, width at mitsukado is 18.5mm; width at hamaki is 25.46mm; between hamachi and munemachi width is 21.14mm; width at the jiri is 16.52mm. The thickness is 4.5mm at the jiri; 7mm at the munemachi; 5.36mm mid-blade; 5.27mm at the kissaki. The blade weighs in at 352g (12.6oz). The sori is 8mm measured at the blade and 1.3cm measured kissaki to jiri. Would blades be made for the boys day occasion or would the youth just be given a small wakizashi? John C.
Nihontocollector752 Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 Guys, no matter what is being said, my personal take is: The sword is traditionally forged The blade is not anything special by way of smith, school or lineage The sword is mid to late edo It has been shortened It is gimei because it was mumei and someone needed a mei to sell it We are fighting and insulting each other over a turd and after all is said and done...it's still a turd
Alex A Posted October 23, 2022 Report Posted October 23, 2022 Jimmy, as funny as it is arguing sometimes. Often seen those that treat folk with disrespect fall, karma My philosophy(if spelt right) , treat folk with respect and you shall receive respect. In my experience of 50 years, ive seen Karma put more things right than i can care to imagine be nice or meet karma 1
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