Jacques D. Posted October 21, 2022 Report Posted October 21, 2022 3 hours ago, Gakusee said: The nakago has been reworked and is thinner than it probably was originally. That could explain some of the large hamachi remaining on the sword. The upper ana could have been the original one, indicating a potentially slight machi okuri. The lower, later ana was probably centred after the nakago had been reshaped. Please be serious
Alex A Posted October 21, 2022 Report Posted October 21, 2022 Jacques, get your point about 2 mekugi- ana not always being a sign of machi-okuri. Though with machi-okuri there is 2 mekugi-ana in lots of examples. A new tsuka would be needed. No doubt there are examples with just one ana. Lots of variation out there. Its not a one size fits all scenario.
Matsunoki Posted October 21, 2022 Report Posted October 21, 2022 9 minutes ago, Jacques D. said: 1 - mekugi ana are pierced and yet are not perfectly circular and I have already provided pictures of kamakura ubu swords with only one mekugi ana this one being perfectly circular to claim to determine from a picture that a mekugi ana is punched or drilled is just idiocy. 2- see answer 1 I add that the fact that there are 2 mekugi ana is in no way a sign of machi-okuri. I have also already provided pictures of machi-okuri nakago with only one mekugi ana. It is enough that a sword is worn either as a katana or as a tachi for it to have 2 mekugi ana Firstly, thanks for calling us idiots…….. although it would seem that you are able to tell an ana is perfectly circular from your statement “I have already provided pictures of kamakura ubu swords with only one mekugi ana this one being perfectly circular” although I’m not sure why the mention of a Kamakura sword with one perfectly circular ana is relevant to the nakago in question…..we are not debating the perfection of their geometry. Secondly, please answer question one……in what way are these two mekugi ana instructive ie what do they actually tell us. Thirdly would you agree that when you can see an ana is clearly heavily tapered it is more likely to be punched than drilled?….or are you suggesting the use of a tapered drill? 1
John C Posted October 21, 2022 Author Report Posted October 21, 2022 Again thanks to everyone for their input. Alex: In response to your question about length. The overall length is 57.6cm; the blade length is 44.7cm (the registration card lists it as 44.8); and the sori is .8cm (which matches the registration card). In addition, I measured the mekugi-ana. the "first" one tapers toward the middle from both sides, though the opening is slightly larger on the omote side of the nakago. The second ana is just slightly smaller, though it also tapers from the omote side to the ura side, however not as much as the "first" ana. I suspect the second ana could be drilled if the drill bit were wiggle a little on the omote side creating a slightly larger opening. I tried to take a pic straight on if it helps. John C. 1
Alex A Posted October 21, 2022 Report Posted October 21, 2022 Thanks John, Would forget about the machi-okuri and just concentrate on whether the work matches that of the mei or that of Takada and take it from there. Christian, you said it looks good, did you look into it ?
Jacques D. Posted October 21, 2022 Report Posted October 21, 2022 2 hours ago, Matsunoki said: Firstly, thanks for calling us idiots…….. although it would seem that you are able to tell an ana is perfectly circular from your statement “I have already provided pictures of kamakura ubu swords with only one mekugi ana this one being perfectly circular” although I’m not sure why the mention of a Kamakura sword with one perfectly circular ana is relevant to the nakago in question…..we are not debating the perfection of their geometry. Secondly, please answer question one……in what way are these two mekugi ana instructive ie what do they actually tell us. Thirdly would you agree that when you can see an ana is clearly heavily tapered it is more likely to be punched than drilled?….or are you suggesting the use of a tapered drill? Learn to read, i never call you idiots Secondly, if you don't see why i can't nothing for you; those mekugi ana were drilled and the second is a fake added to make it look like... Thirdly, I don't care if it's punched or drilled because it's not a clue for the reasons I gave above. On the other hand, the location, I look at it. Both are ubu 1 1
Matsunoki Posted October 21, 2022 Report Posted October 21, 2022 3 hours ago, Jacques D. said: to claim to determine from a picture that a mekugi ana is punched or drilled is just idiocy. 22 minutes ago, Jacques D. said: Learn to read, i never call you idiots Learn some manners and humility. As for the rest of your reply …it makes no sense whatsoever in the context of this discussion.. Do you actually read what you type? 1
Tensho Posted October 21, 2022 Report Posted October 21, 2022 You people make me laugh when you debate "drilled vs punched" watch some videos on smiths punching holes out of steel bars. They're darn near perfectly circular. If anything, the drilled holes are the buggered up ones. Anyone that says they can tell you 100% that its drilled or punched is full of themselves. 2
John C Posted October 21, 2022 Author Report Posted October 21, 2022 Alex: Thank you. Did some reading on the Sue-Takada school. Many of the elements of the blade seem to fit that style, however I'm just too new at this to call it either way. FYI, the the hamon does drop off onto the nakago just like the picture displayed in the link you provided. John C.
Jacques D. Posted October 21, 2022 Report Posted October 21, 2022 2 hours ago, Matsunoki said: Learn some manners and humility. As for the rest of your reply …it makes no sense whatsoever in the context of this discussion.. Do you actually read what you type? Once more learn to read, I'm not an idiot but sometimes I say stupid things as every body. Now I wonder why they would have reworked (machi-okuri) a sword made by an obscure swordsmith who must have only made kazu uchi mono, considering the price it costs, it makes no sense
John C Posted October 21, 2022 Author Report Posted October 21, 2022 Jacques: For a kazu uchi mono (mass-produced blade?), what era would we be talking about? Was it more common in certain time periods? Interesting, thank you. John C.
NewB Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 Supplying oshigata examples means NOTHING when speaking about mekugi Ana. Think of how the oshigata is made LOL Jacques, you do know and you clearly read a lot but you also know how to spoil the fun and/or piss folks off. I'm used to you already so it doesn't bother me by any means. But back to this example - there's NOBODY in this World that can convince me that the original mekugi Ana was drilled. Flat out. Cheers J.
NewB Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 3 hours ago, John C said: Jacques: For a kazu uchi mono (mass-produced blade?), what era would we be talking about? Was it more common in certain time periods? Interesting, thank you. John C. While this was not addressed to me feel free to read about the Sengoku period. they have a documentary dedicated to it - age of samurai - battle for Japan. Cheers J.
John C Posted October 22, 2022 Author Report Posted October 22, 2022 John V. Will do. Thank you. Trying to learn as much as I can! John C.
Alex A Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 John, could do with better pictures of your blade, then over the weekend sure there are some that if they get a spare minute will take a closer look. cheers. Machi-okuri or not is always a subject that gets folk harassed Hence why i started the thread below .... With regards hamon, to know if a blade is machi-okuri or not you really need to compare with UBU examples of that particular smiths work. Folk often assume that if the hamon runs into the nakago then the blade has been altered but its a fact that an hamon running into the nakago is not uncommon for a number of smiths. A few clues to show a sword is machi-okuri...... TWO ana (though as pointed out by Jacques, ONE ana should whoever owned it have the new tsuka made to fit the original ana). Folk give opinions based on the information they have picked up over the years, seen enough Machi-okuri on single hand Bizen swords to form that opinion. A change in the yasurime/patina. If you look at UBU blades that have not been messed with, although sometimes worn you will notice a pattern as to where these features end on the nakago. If shortened then you may see a disturbance that stands out. Look at some very old swords that have had machi-okuri done in later life and sometimes it is obvious. Not always straight forward though as it depends on the level of finish when a blade was shortened and the level of corrosion/wear ever since, just clues. Below, randomly picked 2 nakago that are what you look for when UBU. Look where the yasurime/patina end and compare to a blade that is obviously machi-okuri I do wonder sometimes though why folk don't allow for variation to rules and start arguing, nothing is straight forward in this hobby, there are always curve balls, so to speak.
Nihontocollector752 Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 Guys please don't presume about mekugi ana, even if a smith punched the hole they were using fine files to smoothen them out by late Kamakura. These mekugi (this sword) were drilled for sure as the interior has new rust and is very smooth. Just because you stick to your opinion doesn't make you right, it just means you need to provide better evidence against the current obvious state. Filing and shaping of steel is required for making a sword. Modern drifted holes will be perfect due to the material composition of tools, ie, the tools are composed of harder metals and using better technologies to do so. None of this matters at all because if you take a modern sword, shorten it, drift a few mekugi, some very gullible person will shout to the high heavens about how its now a koto blade. Lets look at the whole sword, in proper angles and profiles (pictures) which the OP doesn't want to show... 1
Alex A Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 One obvious feature that is well know on drilled ana and the only thing i look for.........................Burrs Lets face it though, not always present for obvious reasons.
Nihontocollector752 Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 The burring will not be obvious after filing
Alex A Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 Well no, not if the smith filed the ana. You do come swords with burrs and ultra crisp edges to the ana where it is obvious they where drilled. Difficult unless excellent high res images. To pull up examples i would just go on Aoi and look at WW2 era blades etc, as a speedy way to view. Quick example, drilled 1860. Never going to look at these holes and wonder if they were punched or not.
Matsunoki Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 10 hours ago, Jacques D. said: Now I wonder why they would have reworked (machi-okuri) a sword made by an obscure swordsmith who must have only made kazu uchi mono, considering the price it costs, it makes no sense I would have thought that there are several very obvious answers to this. 1. reworking a nakago is far cheaper than getting a new sword 2. it’s his sword and he liked it - and didn’t want to junk it 3. reworking a nakago can be done by untrained hands and thus would not even require a smith (I’m not saying it would be done properly…..but possibly required quickly in battle circumstances) etc etc …..and you are making a massive assumption that this smith (whoever he is) only made kazu uchi mono….can you substantiate this? Evidence?
Jacques D. Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 10 hours ago, John C said: Jacques: For a kazu uchi mono (mass-produced blade?), what era would we be talking about? Was it more common in certain time periods? Interesting, thank you. John C. I will try to be precise. When I talk about Kazu-uchi mono I am talking about the smith not about this sword. I would like to know the measurements of this sword but from what I can see, there is nothing to indicate that it was made during the muromachi period on the contrary the state of the hamachi indicates a recent production. You have to rely on the clues you have, not on what you think you see on the pictures. The only reference to this smith that I could find both in my library (very well stocked) and on the net is a quotation in the nihonto meikan (photo attached) which means that he is a very small smith and not an artist. It is impossible to say with certainty that it is a gimei but to pass off a showato as an older sword knowing that one cannot verify the authenticity of the mei is not stupid and is conceivable
Alex A Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 Seen papered old swords with a surprisingly healthy hamachi, more research needed. Also, to go to the trouble of making a Showato resemble a wak of a really obscure smith strikes me as a lot of bother for nothing.. Some dimensions above Jacques, not all 2
Nihontocollector752 Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 Looking at what little picture we have here on the hada and hamon, Takada school from the late edo isn't out of tge realm of possibility but the mei is terrible. Its not cut well and not even placed correctly. We're spending a lot of time trying to evaluate on no relevant pictures.
Alex A Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 Aye, we need better pics. If the work matches that of a smith but the mei looks dodgy then there is always a possibility of Dai-mei or drunk smith
Jacques D. Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 1 hour ago, Alex A said: Seen papered old swords with a surprisingly healthy hamachi, more research needed. Also, to go to the trouble of making a Showato resemble a wak of a really obscure smith strikes me as a lot of bother for nothing.. Some dimensions above Jacques, not all I too have seen very old blades (early Kamakura) with a hamachi in very good condition, but it is very rare and we know the sword. When I see an unknown sword with such a hamachi I think it is recent (Occam's razor) until the contrary is proven. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor About the frauds, we have done absolutely everything. As soon as we can sell a sword for twice its price, we go.
Alex A Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 Jacques, every so often when looking at sales sites i notice old swords with healthy hamachi, nothing new. Maybe you don't look often enough Would rather base an opinion on the entire blade then just focus on the hamachi or mekugi ana, sigh.
Jacques D. Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 1 hour ago, Alex A said: Jacques, every so often when looking at sales sites i notice old swords with healthy hamachi, nothing new. Maybe you don't look often enough Would rather base an opinion on the entire blade then just focus on the hamachi or mekugi ana, sigh. You just need to prove it giving the source not a simple image..
Alex A Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 See above, not spending all day searching just to please you
Jacques D. Posted October 22, 2022 Report Posted October 22, 2022 This picture doesn't prove anything that you are right, the link would be preferable so that we could verify because I suspect you of being in bad faith and of falsifying the truth. I know that you don't have the necessary knowledge 1 1
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