John C Posted October 18, 2022 Report Posted October 18, 2022 I was looking at my wak under a loop and noticed this "spot" on the ura side of the blade. Maybe I'm just seeing things, however it looks like someone tried to remove a mark of some sort. I am unsure since I am unfamiliar with typical nakago condition. Any thoughts? Regards, John C.
Nihontocollector752 Posted October 18, 2022 Report Posted October 18, 2022 Military blade? Sometimes stamps were removed
Matsunoki Posted October 18, 2022 Report Posted October 18, 2022 John- Can we see images of the whole nakago and the whole blade please? That will help in determining what the two “marks”might be. To me, based on what we can see of the nakago, it doesn’t look like a military sword ….it looks older….and the “marks” could simply be deeper rust pits. All the best.Colin
John C Posted October 18, 2022 Author Report Posted October 18, 2022 Jimmy: My thoughts as well. Could it be a military blade that someone tried to alter and make look older? The consensus is that it looks like an older blade, so I am not sure. Charles: Not sure how big the star stamp was, however that spot there is only about 3mm wide. The spot I identified is about 6mm wide, if that helps. John C.
John C Posted October 18, 2022 Author Report Posted October 18, 2022 Collin: There is a thread called Dai Inspection Mark that I started that has some pics of the nakago and blade on it. Hopefully, that helps as well. John C.
lonely panet Posted October 19, 2022 Report Posted October 19, 2022 its all in your mind, its a pre war sward 1
Nihontocollector752 Posted October 19, 2022 Report Posted October 19, 2022 3 hours ago, lonely panet said: its all in your mind, its a pre war sward Pft, in all your infinite wisdom, please elaborate @John C could you cut to the chase and post the pics here so we can adequately answer your query (if possible)
NewB Posted October 19, 2022 Report Posted October 19, 2022 Looks like the holes were punched and most likely suriage. IMHO , I doubt this is a WWII blade with stamps being removed. J&U 1
Jacques D. Posted October 19, 2022 Report Posted October 19, 2022 On 10/18/2022 at 5:42 AM, John C said: I was looking at my wak under a loop and noticed this "spot" on the ura side of the blade. Maybe I'm just seeing things, however it looks like someone tried to remove a mark of some sort. I am unsure since I am unfamiliar with typical nakago condition. Any thoughts? Regards, John C. It is possible, here is a nakago of a showato that has been artificially aged, the stamp has been erased, a false patina has been applied, the nakago jiri has been sawed and a second mekugi ana has been pierced, I have cleaned the mei in order to read it. Please, pay attention at the mekugi ana they are instructive.
John C Posted October 19, 2022 Author Report Posted October 19, 2022 Here are some more pics of the blade to get an overall feel for its age and style. John C.
DoTanuki yokai Posted October 20, 2022 Report Posted October 20, 2022 Looks good, Bungo province smith Taira Sadamori worked in Eisho period.
Nihontocollector752 Posted October 20, 2022 Report Posted October 20, 2022 Not sure about the mei....
Jacques D. Posted October 20, 2022 Report Posted October 20, 2022 Nihonto meikan quote a Sadamori 定守 working in Daiei (1521/1528) with two kinds of mei Sadamori saku 定守作 and Taira Sadamori saku 平定守作. I have not been able to find a mei of this smith either on the net or in the literature but seeing the state of the hamachi of this sword, I find it very hard to believe that this blade was made in the 1520s
John C Posted October 20, 2022 Author Report Posted October 20, 2022 I agree that the blade does not seem that old to me. It seems sturdy, light, and hand forged (as opposed to machined). My early assumption was a Gendaito or other modern blade. But there are also too many inconsistencies with the mei, overall blade shape, and mune marks. As well as the possible mystery mark(s). Incidentally, that is why I came to you all on this forum. I hoped that if anyone could solve this mystery if would be the learned folks on NMB! Thank you all very much for taking the time to help out with this endeavor. John C.
NewB Posted October 20, 2022 Report Posted October 20, 2022 correct me if I'm wrong but I see machi okuri, fumbari (probably because of machi okuri) and an old style punched mekugi Ana. On the top of that the hamon/hada carry that old Forged steel appeal. I'm asking/suggesting so please correct me if I'm wrong. Cheers J. 1
jeremy Posted October 21, 2022 Report Posted October 21, 2022 12 hours ago, Jacques D. said: Nihonto meikan quote a Sadamori 定守 working in Daiei (1521/1528) with two kinds of mei Sadamori saku 定守作 and Taira Sadamori saku 平定守作. I have not been able to find a mei of this smith either on the net or in the literature but seeing the state of the hamachi of this sword, I find it very hard to believe that this blade was made in the 1520s That's the first thing that stood out to me also, the hamachi looks way too healthy to be a koto blade
John C Posted October 21, 2022 Author Report Posted October 21, 2022 John V. I see what you mean. I assumed the polisher had gone farther down on the nakago, however I do see an area just below the polished area that has a slight thinning or indentation. This could indicate the original location of the hamachi. Additionally, it appears the hamon does extend into the nakago about 3cm. So what does that mean? Is non-suriage machi okuri common? John C.
NewB Posted October 21, 2022 Report Posted October 21, 2022 21 minutes ago, John C said: John V. I see what you mean. I assumed the polisher had gone farther down on the nakago, however I do see an area just below the polished area that has a slight thinning or indentation. This could indicate the original location of the hamachi. Additionally, it appears the hamon does extend into the nakago about 3cm. So what does that mean? Is non-suriage machi okuri common? John C. I'll leave that to the more knowledgeable but I've seen that 'shaving' of the tempered side. And yes, the reason why I assumed what I stated is because I saw the extension of the hamon a bit further down myself. I'm almost certain it's an older blade to my newb eyes. Cheers J.
Jacques D. Posted October 21, 2022 Report Posted October 21, 2022 11 hours ago, Darkcon said: correct me if I'm wrong but I see machi okuri, fumbari (probably because of machi okuri) and an old style punched mekugi Ana. On the top of that the hamon/hada carry that old Forged steel appeal. I'm asking/suggesting so please correct me if I'm wrong. Cheers J. When a blade is machi-okuri the funbari (if there is one) disappears or at least is greatly reduced. On this sword I don't see any funbari I think it is a photographic distortion. As for the mekugi ana it is time to throw away these beliefs
Alex A Posted October 21, 2022 Report Posted October 21, 2022 If you see an "old style punched" mekugi ana, then you have to take it into consideration along with everything else available that a sword is telling you. Its the last thing you look at and you cant rely on it as some punched ana are that round and perfect (especially in images) they look drilled. In really old blades with obvious punched ana then they are great for backing up what the sword is already telling you. Good to see! You may come across a Shinto or Shinshinto blade with an obvious punched ana, who knows, perhaps the smith was out of drills lol and just thought sod it, il punch it. etc. You may come across older blades with one drilled ana, perhaps an old punched ana was widened in later times.
Gakusee Posted October 21, 2022 Report Posted October 21, 2022 The nakago has been reworked and is thinner than it probably was originally. That could explain some of the large hamachi remaining on the sword. The upper ana could have been the original one, indicating a potentially slight machi okuri. The lower, later ana was probably centred after the nakago had been reshaped. 3
Matsunoki Posted October 21, 2022 Report Posted October 21, 2022 On 10/19/2022 at 8:07 PM, Jacques D. said: Please, pay attention at the mekugi ana they are instructive. 1 hour ago, Jacques D. said: As for the mekugi ana it is time to throw away these beliefs Please give us the benefit of your expertise as these two statements are a bit confusing. Q1. In what way are these particular mekugi ana instructive? Q2. Which beliefs regarding mekugi ana are time to throw away? Thank you. 1
Alex A Posted October 21, 2022 Report Posted October 21, 2022 Maybe looking more closely at the blade hada and hamon may add some progress, need better pics though. 1
Alex A Posted October 21, 2022 Report Posted October 21, 2022 Just to add, after a quick look Nakago Jiri, Yasurime good for Sue Takada. They were known for making thick blades and making swords that resembled other schools. Just a pointer to maybe look more in to.
Matsunoki Posted October 21, 2022 Report Posted October 21, 2022 In one image surely we can see fumbari and a distinct reshaping of the nakago? But in the other image it looks as if the hamon ends at the hamachi……re-hardened??? 1
NewB Posted October 21, 2022 Report Posted October 21, 2022 Those were my points. Definitely not re hardened IMHO. Definitely machi okuri that actually created the overemphasized fumbari that clearly reiterates the machi okuri since the hamon is so close to the cutting edge. Then clearly it is machi okuri since the hamon runs down slightly longer than the current Hamachi. And clearly such mekugi Ana punched holes are not easily seen on post 1700's blades imho. Look at the entrance diameter and its considerably smaller exit hole diameter. Not a belief - a fact! Cheers J.
Alex A Posted October 21, 2022 Report Posted October 21, 2022 Aye, machi-okuri http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/suriage.html What is the actual length of your wak ? Ps, all this is very difficult from images,
Jacques D. Posted October 21, 2022 Report Posted October 21, 2022 3 hours ago, Matsunoki said: Please give us the benefit of your expertise as these two statements are a bit confusing. Q1. In what way are these particular mekugi ana instructive? Q2. Which beliefs regarding mekugi ana are time to throw away? Thank you. 1 - mekugi ana are pierced and yet are not perfectly circular and I have already provided pictures of kamakura ubu swords with only one mekugi ana this one being perfectly circular to claim to determine from a picture that a mekugi ana is punched or drilled is just idiocy. 2- see answer 1 I add that the fact that there are 2 mekugi ana is in no way a sign of machi-okuri. I have also already provided pictures of machi-okuri nakago with only one mekugi ana. It is enough that a sword is worn either as a katana or as a tachi for it to have 2 mekugi ana Edit and in the case of a wakizashi of adaptation to another tsuka example below
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