A new (for me) kind of shill bidding on Yahoo! Japan

[PietroParis]

I learned something today that may well be common knowledge for the more experienced members but is perhaps interesting for the beginners. I was bidding on Yahoo! Japan for a tsuba signed Tatsutoshi, and I eventually gave up against a seemingly more-determined competitor. However, just before the end of the auction, I got an email informing me that the seller had cancelled the highest bid, and mine was now on top. The message included the sentence "Yahoo! Japan Auction allows sellers to freely cancel bids from any bidder. They often do so if they see that a particular bidder has a very low reputation, or has some other problems."  It now seems obvious to me that the other bidder was the seller him/herself, who was just probing how high I was willing to push.

 

I am of course familiar with the phenomenon of shill bidding on eBay, but there at least the sellers run the risk of buying their own item (and, I presume,  pay the resulting fees) if they overestimate the buyer's eagerness. In contrast, the system of Yahoo! Japan is entirely skewed in favor of the sellers,  who can probe the buyer's absolute maximum and then just cancel the bid that sent them over the top. I must say that this leaves me with the bitter aftertaste of having been taken advantage of, and spoils a bit the satisfaction of "winning" the tsuba I was after. I just hope that there's no further disappointment in store for when I eventually receive it...

[Brian]

I would refuse to pay. But that is just me. It is ludicrous.
Of course, if a seller cancels the high bid, then he should have to cancel every bid by that person....dropping your bid to one over the next highest bidder. If they don't cancel his other bids and drop your price accordingly, I would call him out.

[PietroParis]

I see what you mean, unfortunately from buyee I cannot see who the other bidders (if any) were. I guess that, even if I complained, the seller could still claim that the last bid was the only dodgy one, and buyee would cover for them. Maybe on Yahoo! Japan proper this is different, but the page is not directly accessible from the EU. Moreover, I could not just refuse to pay, because buyee automatically takes your money (from PayPal, in my case) as soon as the auction is finished. As I wrote, the system is entirely skewed in favor of the seller.

 

It is not a big deal because the price I paid does not seem outrageous to me - again, barring bad surprises upon reception of the tsuba - but I have to live with the thought that, if I had given up earlier in the bidding war, I might have ended up buying the same tsuba for less...

[Brian]

I think if you are logged into the Japanese site, you may be able to see a partial name of other bidders. Not sure, I am not registered there. Perhaps someone can check.

[PietroParis]

I will try to contact the customers service of buyee, but I have very low expectations. Besides, a seller could just set up multiple puppet accounts to avoid detection.

[PietroParis]

16 minutes ago, Brian said:

I think if you are logged into the Japanese site, you may be able to see a partial name of other bidders. Not sure, I am not registered there. Perhaps someone can check.

 

In case anyone wants to check, this should be the link: https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/e1066848188

 

If I try to open it from France, I get a message that the service is not available in the European Economic Area.

 

[ChrisW]

1 hour ago, Brian said:

I would refuse to pay. But that is just me. It is ludicrous.
Of course, if a seller cancels the high bid, then he should have to cancel every bid by that person....dropping your bid to one over the next highest bidder. If they don't cancel his other bids and drop your price accordingly, I would call him out.

 

This! This should be standard policy.

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

for 141 USD I wouldnt bother with teh headache and would just enjoy the piece.  

[PietroParis]

13 minutes ago, Infinite_Wisdumb said:

for 141 USD I wouldnt bother with teh headache and would just enjoy the piece.  

 

Sure, as I wrote above it's not a big deal financially. It's just the feeling of having been taken for a ride that stings!

 

[P.S. I expect that the total will be above $200 after including shipping and taxes, but that's not the point]

[Bugyotsuji]

Yup, been done over in various inventive ways at Yahoo Japan. Different set of rules.

You do have the option of saying 熱くなり過ぎた。There is an unspoken agreement to a short cooling off period, which most (but not all dealers) would agree to. You would lose the Tsuba though.

One slowly learns to read the atmosphere… hopefully, paying the so-called 授業料 jugyoryo in the meantime.

[Brian]

Still want to know from anyone who has login access...does it show bidder history?

[PietroParis]

Meanwhile, I get this boilerplate reply from the Buyee customer support:

 

Dear Pietro ***,

 

(...)

In line with order no. ***, please be advised that the seller has
great authority with the auction. The rules of Yahoo Auctions in Japan offer
the sellers a great deal of authority.

They have the right to choose to whom they wish to sell, and thus they also
have the right to cancel bids. Usually, sellers do not provide us with any
reasons why they canceled the bid or why they have chosen the winner.

We understand that it may not be fair, however, it is unfortunate that this
is how Yahoo! Auctions Japan is operated. Sadly, we do not have any influence
or control over the rules of Yahoo! Auctions Japan.

We hope this mail clarifies your concern.

We kindly ask for your kind understanding and cooperation.

(...)

[Brian]

I wouldn't deal with them specifically for that reason.

[Baba Yaga]

Looks like America Epray a few decades ago before the rules changed. BBW

[Curran]

*sigh*   Yahoo!Japan     is a shillfest these days.

 

[rkg]

I don't know if you resolved it, but you should note that Jauce actually will let you view the bid history - click on the number of bids when you have the item up in their viewer.

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

P.S.  YJ is a bundle of snakes.  Between the shills, dodgy/misrepresented/cleverly photographed to hide problems items, and the large number of sellers that treat auctions as "suggested prices" and cancel any auction where the price doesn't meet their highest expectations, its not for the weak these days - this is a good reason to -only- bid what you would be happy to have the item at (if it isn't quite as good as it looks, etc).

 

[YOJIMBO]

13 hours ago, rkg said:

I don't know if you resolved it, but you should note that Jauce actually will let you view the bid history - click on the number of bids when you have the item up in their viewer.

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

P.S.  YJ is a bundle of snakes.  Between the shills, dodgy/misrepresented/cleverly photographed to hide problems items, and the large number of sellers that treat auctions as "suggested prices" and cancel any auction where the price doesn't meet their highest expectations, its not for the weak these days - this is a good reason to -only- bid what you would be happy to have the item at (if it isn't quite as good as it looks, etc).

 

my opinion is that it corresponds exactly to the shallow, false mentality of the Japanese.

[Baba Yaga]

8 hours ago, YOJIMBO said:

my opinion is that it corresponds exactly to the shallow, false mentality of the Japanese.

 

It's not just the false mentality of the Japanese, It's all systems and all people. Should of been around a few decades ago on American Epray. 

Without rules we are all animals. 

[PietroParis]

On 10/21/2022 at 7:50 PM, rkg said:

P.S.  YJ is a bundle of snakes.  Between the shills, dodgy/misrepresented/cleverly photographed to hide problems items, and the large number of sellers that treat auctions as "suggested prices" and cancel any auction where the price doesn't meet their highest expectations, its not for the weak these days - this is a good reason to -only- bid what you would be happy to have the item at (if it isn't quite as good as it looks, etc).

 

I was quite anxious about the condition of the tsuba, but I received it this morning and I am happy to report that there were no hidden problems. A bit smaller than I expected (definitely wakizashi size) but that's on me, I should have paid more attention to the measurements. Another thing that I had not realized from the pictures but was actually a pleasant surprise is that the tsuba is slightly bowl-shaped (wan-gata).

 

Concerning the shipping, I had chosen "Buyee Air Delivery" so the parcel was shipped with FedEx instead of the standard EMS. Alas, they did apply the full 20% VAT rate instead of the reduced 5.5% for antiques, but there's still hope for a reversal, I have not paid yet while I wait for a reply to my complaint. At least they delivered the parcel in the meantime, differently from most other carriers who would threaten to send it back to Japan if you don't pay up.

[rkg]

On 10/21/2022 at 11:52 PM, YOJIMBO said:

my opinion is that it corresponds exactly to the shallow, false mentality of the Japanese.

Simon,

I am not sure what about my comments are annoying you, but ALL of the things I noted have happened to me, repeatedly.

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

 

EDIT:  well, except for the shill bidding, which I have avoided for quite a while by not bidding any more than I'd be happy to have the piece at

[rkg]

And... Speak of the devil.  I just won a piece on YJ (pending the seller not cancelling the auction because he didn't like the final price, of course).  It went for my maximum bid on the piece, which always makes me suspicious.  It looks like the under-bidder bid the same amount as me but I put my bid in first - or did the shill go over my limit and then cancel back to my max bid?  I am not sure how to resolve that, but again, I didn't bid more than I would be happy to have the piece at, so YMMV.

 

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

 

[Curran]

On 10/26/2022 at 12:32 PM, rkg said:

And... Speak of the devil.  I just won a piece on YJ (pending the seller not cancelling the auction because he didn't like the final price, of course).  It went for my maximum bid on the piece, which always makes me suspicious.  It looks like the under-bidder bid the same amount as me but I put my bid in first - or did the shill go over my limit and then cancel back to my max bid?  I am not sure how to resolve that, but again, I didn't bid more than I would be happy to have the piece at, so YMMV.

 

Rkg

(Richard George)

 

 

For >$1000, must have been something interesting.

I've had that experience too when something is very sparsely bid up (4 or 5 bids), I put in my max bid at maybe 2x the price at the time.  Say 45,000 yen for something at 22000 yen when I bid.

About 5 to 10 seconds later, the item has 25 to 30 bids more... right up to my maximum.

 

Yeaah! I barely one?!

Or did I just get stuffed by an algorithm that ping me up to my max bid?

   Pretty sure I got stuffed.

 

So, other than that Miyamoto Musashi tsuba and one other, I haven't bid above 100,000 yen on anything Yahoo!Japan in a very long time. Way way way too much shilling and other games. Worse than Wall Street these days.

 

Curran

 

[rkg]

16 hours ago, Curran said:

 

For >$1000, must have been something interesting.

I've had that experience too when something is very sparsely bid up (4 or 5 bids), I put in my max bid at maybe 2x the price at the time.  Say 45,000 yen for something at 22000 yen when I bid.

About 5 to 10 seconds later, the item has 25 to 30 bids more... right up to my maximum.

 

Yeaah! I barely one?!

Or did I just get stuffed by an algorithm that ping me up to my max bid?

   Pretty sure I got stuffed.

 

So, other than that Miyamoto Musashi tsuba and one other, I haven't bid above 100,000 yen on anything Yahoo!Japan in a very long time. Way way way too much shilling and other games. Worse than Wall Street these days.

 

Curran

 

Curran,

It is tough to tell what is going on there - yahoo's autobid got delayed, shill bidding, your agent had somebody else who was bidding at the same time on the same item (plenty of weirdness around that as the agent can't really bid against themselves), etc. Were you bidding close to the end time?

 

Yeah, there isn't a lot on YJ that is -really- interesting these days - the trouble is that fleabay is even worse, with a surprising number of the listings being for items that are on YJ (or Japanese dealer/junk shop sites) as well at a much lower price....

 

On the other hand, if you are buying in dollars, a lot of the pricing went from just stupid to "maybe an OK price", so YMMV.

 

Sucks when you sell though - I just went through that with a big stack of "catch and release" and other tsuba that I haven't had time to deaccession for quite a while - dollar prices should be down a lot given what you can buy equivalent pieces for in yen now...

rkg

[Curran]

I agree.

   With US$ so strong, seemingly a good time to buy. But Yahoo!Japan borders on a desert right now, with little supply. Most things tempting have a hook or quicksand about them.

 

Watching a lot of the non Japanese flippers get scissored by the current rate spike, but it also dissuades me from listing one or two tsuba I'd thought about selling.

Sort of a sit-n-wait period.

 

Curran

 

 

 

[Sidicas]

Yes, Shill bidding is rampant on Yahoo! Japan and is a huge problem.

 

If you win it and its at your max bid, then most likely the seller is using other accounts to bid up the auction and then canceling the bids from their selling account. Nothing you can really do about it.

 

The best way to protect yourself is to know the true value of the item you are bidding on, how much it regularly sells for, and don't ever bid a single yen more.

 

If it's for a specific item, it's ok to lowball bid and then come back later and see how much it actually sold for so you have an idea of how much you should be bidding.

 

This is what I frequently do.  Lowball bid everything I want, look and see what it went for, and next time bid a bit more.

 

But on some things, especially collections/"junk"/bulk sale items it gets very difficult to estimate what the price should be.

 

For example, I see idol DVDs selling for ~500 yen so the collection/bulk sale of those I might estimate at 500 yen x the number of DVDs and then divide it by 2 and then still have the bidding price bid all the way up to my max by the seller's shill bidder accounts.

 

For those items that I low ball bid on, sometimes I win it at a ridiculously low price.  100 Yen for a stack of blurays or DVDs, and the seller's shill bid accounts even worked their hardest to bid it up to that 100 yen.  And I get all excited. Right up until the seller cancels the whole auction for some BS reason and I never get the items anyway.

 

Yahoo! Japan is rigged against the buyer so don't ever think you're going to get a ridiculous great deal.

 

I don't think I ever have.

 

 

You always end up paying around what the market price is for the item, or the seller cancels the item if it doesn't go up to that level. OR in a much worse situation you pay a lot more than market price for the item because you didn't research how much it's actually worth and the seller used shill bids to screw you over. 

 

So really, these are the possibilities:

 

1. You're the highest bidder and the seller uses shill accounts to bid it up to your max, but doesn't agree to the price and cancels the whole auction.

2. You're the highest bidder and the seller uses shill accounts to bid it up to your max, and agrees to the price so you get the item.

3. You're the highest bidder and the seller doesn't use shill accounts to bid it up to your max, and just cancels the auction because it's not anywhere near what the market pays for the items.

4. You're the highest bidder and the seller didn't need to use shill accounts because it's a popular item that a lot of people are wanting, and bidding on, and so it will just automatically go for the market value and you get the item.

5. You're not the highest bidder and you just don't get the item.  And maybe the highest bidder also doesn't get it either because the seller cancelled it (see 1-3 above).

 

 

Yahoo! Auctions in a nutshell.   

 

Also, a lot of sites like Zenmarket will ban any sellers that cancel auctions after you win it. So when they relist it after cancelling it, you can't bid on it from that seller again. And nobody else that uses the site can bid on anything that seller sells.  Seller doesn't care.

 

Just FYI, if you low ball bid something and seller cancels, you might not be able to bid on it from the same seller after it's relisted because you got the seller banned from Zenmarket. Which might be bad if it's a very rare item and you already know what it should sell for and decide to low ball bid it anyway trying to get a crazy good deal.  Happened to me one time on an item that I waited over a year for to show up for auction and then I couldn't bid on it because seller got banned after cancelling my winning auction with a lowball bid previously on the same item. So somebody else got it for less money than I was actually willing to pay for it AND on top of that I had to wait a year and a half before another one went up for auction.

 

So extremely rare items that you check every day and only see go up for sale once a year or so, it's not a good idea to be low ball bidding it.

 

Been using it for years, hope this helps somebody.  Maybe I should write a book!

 

 

[Curran]

On 11/3/2022 at 4:49 PM, Sidicas said:

So really, these are the possibilities:

 

1. You're the highest bidder and the seller uses shill accounts to bid it up to your max, but doesn't agree to the price and cancels the whole auction.

2. You're the highest bidder and the seller uses shill accounts to bid it up to your max, and agrees to the price so you get the item.

3. You're the highest bidder and the seller doesn't use shill accounts to bid it up to your max, and just cancels the auction because it's not anywhere near what the market pays for the items.

4. You're the highest bidder and the seller didn't need to use shill accounts because it's a popular item that a lot of people are wanting, and bidding on, and so it will just automatically go for the market value and you get the item.

5. You're not the highest bidder and you just don't get the item.  And maybe the highest bidder also doesn't get it either because the seller cancelled it (see 1-3 above).

 

Yahoo! Auctions in a nutshell.  

 

Very nice synopsis.

I found a teabowl from a 20th century artist that I would like to bid on, but the dealer is so obviously a shiller.

He's got 20-30 items up and all of them have 5 to 95 bids. Ie. small bids all the way up, on ALL items.

 

Sooooooo the moral of the story is BID ONLY THAT WHICH YOU WANT TO BID.

Take the one shot and walk away.

 

[Curran]

So I bid.

And I won it.

Been a while since I bid on anything, and I cycled back 1 hour later to see it show up in the "you have won this auction" category.

 

NOOOOOO.

I guess the seller cancelled the auction and has since relisted it at 12x my winning bid.

 

why bother?

[Char]

On a positive note, it is an educational place on items when the public there have placed their top
bids giving a rough sense of its worth sometimes they come up on another site generally for double the price.