New Aquisition

[Rivkin]

Its Muromachi Tenbun. Uniform torii zori with just a tiny hint of koshii zori, not much taper, rough looking utsuri with no clear midare shape and certainly not jifu utsuri.

The measurements of kissaki in situ are not a determining factor, ko kissaki of the early swords is tiny in comparison with what otherwise is a great blade with much greater width an hamachi.

For the school the choice here is wide. Fuyuhiro, for example. Can be Bizen Sukesada. Can be something else, they are all similar in some of their work and the level of valuation reflects that. Its not mainline Soshu or Kaneuji school because it lacks nie activity.

[Utopianarian]

Depending on the angle of the pic or light source can dramatically change the appearance of the blade. Here are pics that show nie on the blade. I am starting to think posting pics of blades doesn’t really help much. In hand always best which is tough when one cannot attend group studies etc..

[Utopianarian]

Yamato Senjuin

[Okan]

On 10/26/2022 at 6:12 AM, Utopianarian said:

Yamato Senjuin

Maybe  maybe not 

 

 

[Utopianarian]

7 hours ago, Okan said:

Maybe  maybe not 

Thank you Okan for sharing your helpful knowledge set on this blade. The general default to attribution on a difficult to judge Yamato from what I have researched narrows down to Senjuin generally. Mostly crickets on this board for most to respond on this blade which I understand it’s a tough call. Thanks to those of you and your consideration whom shared their knowledge on this difficult blade.

[Jacques D.]

I won't say anything about this sword because I am not a fortune teller but I will say that you can only see an utsuri on a blade in a perfect state of polish (if the polisher is talented enough).

 

 

[Okan]

Dear George, I love your obsession and enthusiasm with your sword but I agree with @Jacques D.  None of us here can attribute your sword to a specific school by looking at the pictures you've taken. Sometimes people see what they really want to see..When I look at your pictures I can see that it's a very nice sword, definitely koto, a little out of polish..Does it look like a Yamato blade..yes sure..But also looks like Yamashiro..and why not Bungo Takada? None of us here are professional appraisers..Even we were, we could be mistaken..

 

Let me give you an example: 

 

Here is a Kanenaga blade appraised by the famous Hitoshi Hayashida..He's also one of the official ww2 sword appraisers..(also sayagaki was written by him in 1950s)  

 

 

So the fancy sayagaki says in short:

 

Kanenaga from Yamato Province

This blade is ōsuriage and mumei
Blade length ~ 62.3 cm
Is mounted in a Nobunaga-koshirae

This sword is referenced in the Higo Tōsō Roku.

The scabbard is of the same dimensions as the scabbard of the sword that is a heirloom of the family of Marquess Hosokawa.

 

Does it look like a Kanenaga?.yes it does..Also, how could Hayashida-san have made a mistake as he was looking at the blade up close and also a master of Kantei..But he did..

 

 

 

 

 

..in 2017, NBTHK appraised the sword as Yamato Shikkake, with Tokubetsu Hozon Token.

 

 

 

Hayashida-san was close but not right.. at the end of the day we are all humans right..what if NBTHK was wrong?  

 

Enjoy your lovely sword!..

 

Okan

 

 

 

 

 

[Utopianarian]

Okan thank you. Very interesting and informative. Yamato blades are very hard to attribute if mumei in a lot of cases it seems. It’s kind of disheartening or I guess my expectations are too high and lack of experience. Especially with the excellent example of Hayashida-San vs NBTHK and the different points of view. Such a great amount of knowledge between the two and as you stated Yamato at the end of the day. All I have to say is I will never drop big bucks on a Papered mumei Yamato with a specific attribution ie…Kanenaga

[Nihontocollector752]

There are a good amount of signed Yamato swords in hozon to juyo 

[Jean]

Sorry, but you are totally wrong Jimmy.

 

 Read what was writing Darcy Brockbank about Yamato swords:

 

 

Quote:

 

 

« I do have everything digital now and have been working on a project with about

5,000 hours in now. Markus has access to my project as he's been doing some 

contributions. So when stuff is fact it's very easy for both of us to confirm this.

 

Studying the Juyo blades is just studying the best published discoveries of the last 60 

years. Looking at them all is like having the eagle's perspective when everyone 

else is thrashing around in the mud.

 

Ultimately being able to check them is what verifies a blade like your tanto is 

so rare and precious. Any signed Yamato work of Nanbokucho and earlier has to be 

held as particularly important as there are 318 that I've counted. This is 

including quasi-Yamato stuff like Mihara and Mino Senjuin etc. Also including 

things like Muromachi Yamato which is more commonly signed and not as important.

 

I think with the five core schools the number is around 130 or 140. So when you 

have one you have something rare just on that basis.

 

Anyone can find a nice blade. There are a lot of nice blades out there.

Anyone can get a nice mumei Taema or mumei Yamato Shizu. There are many. But

some blades are the items that we need in order to piece together the bigger

picture. That's where things like this come in and those are the ones I try to

get for my website when possible.

 

Looking at the bigger picture and studying all the Juyo and Tokuju side by side 

further hammers home the point that there are Juyo blades and then there are a

small sliver of these that stand apart for some reason. Because the average 

Western collector (and even Japanese collector) doesn't have this perspective

they easily get lost in relativism, thinking that any two blades are equivalent

because they have the same paper or so on.

 

When you look at the numbers, there are more mumei Nagamitsu than there are 

signed Yamato blades from the 5 schools, Nanbokucho and earlier. Though 

Nagamitsu is held in high regard there is no way of knowing who made a Nagamitsu 

(they are all talented students but the point is that Nagamitsu is basically a 

brand name and the average westerner cannot tell the difference between the 

master's work and one of the students). we have the same problem with Rai

Kunitoshi in that the NBTHK doesn't differentiate the various daimei works. If 

someone studies and takes the time as I've done then the six signatures stand 

out clearly. So we need to draw some conclusions from that. True master's work 

should be elevated a bit among the daimei. But it's up to you to know what 

you're looking at and why one Rai Kunitoshi may be more expensive than the other 

(or why it may be a good deal). Again with the two Kunitoshi you have about 

double the number of works in total as there are signed Yamato blades of 

Nanbokucho and earlier.

 

I'm no huge fan of Yamato work on my own but there are standout blades and I 

think when one is signed it doesn't need anyone to stand up and have to write a 

lot about why it's special, it just is special on its own.»

[Jacques D.]

I would pretty much agree with Jimmy and I'm not sure if Darcy was able to verify how many Yamato swords exist, i highly doubt it.

I know that that example can be rightly labelled as a strawman but it is a pretty good example.

 

https://www.nipponto.co.jp/swords3/NT327754.htm

[Gakusee]

51 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

I would pretty much agree with Jimmy and I'm not sure if Darcy was able to verify how many Yamato swords exist, i highly doubt it.

I know that that example can be rightly labelled as a strawman but it is a pretty good example.

 

https://www.nipponto.co.jp/swords3/NT327754.htm

 

The post and comments that Jean L made referred to signed Yamato blades, and also of certain quality. There are plenty of mumei ones. At Juyo and above level, there are fewer than 170-180 (one needs to double check the entries but my rough count is reasonably accurate, perhaps +/- 5) and that includes some Muromachi stuff. If we are just focusing on Kamakura, then we are in the realm of 110-120. 

Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to know what the situation is at Hozon/ToHo, unless one has some insider connections into the Honbu and they double check their registers. But chances are that if an Yamato blade is a zaimei and of adequate quality, it will get elevated to Juyo, so the Juyo/TJ Zufu are very good proxy for the overall population. 

[Rivkin]

I am frankly puzzled what to say...

Is it common for Tegai Kanenaga to have kissaki that long? It is a mistake or not to judge a bit midare hamon as Shikkake and not Tegai? What does it mean certified expert, today? There is government certification which certainly some have, but does it help when judging a particular blade?

On Yamato signatures its like lumping everything in one bowl and arguing it tastes sour so the ingredients must be.

Signed Hosho tanto can be acquired, signed Kamakura Senjuin were thought to be very rare, but there are a few which one can buy today at TH level and they are not going above that.

Signed Taima is extraordinary rare, early Tegai is very rare (but they exist even at TH) and Shizu is precious.

Signed Muromachi Mihara is very common. Signed Zenjo or similar stuff is pretty common.

[Nihontocollector752]

I said signed from hozon to juyo, not specifically juyo only. This is on reference to not spending "big bucks" on mumei Yamato swords, which i agree because it is possible to find signed kamakura examples. Yamato as a whole has its own place and varying degrees of quality. 

[Jussi Ekholm]

I looked and for the 5 core schools I have 214 signed swords so far. I know I am missing 39 signed ones that have made Jūyō in that count, so the total is bit over 250 as I will eventually get info on those too. Even though the number seems large they are still very rare in my opinion. Few of those might be c. Mid-Muromachi but almost all should be early Muromachi or earlier.

[Jacques D.]

6 hours ago, Gakusee said:

 

The post and comments that Jean L made referred to signed Yamato blades, and also of certain quality. There are plenty of mumei ones. At Juyo and above level, there are fewer than 170-180 (one needs to double check the entries but my rough count is reasonably accurate, perhaps +/- 5) and that includes some Muromachi stuff. If we are just focusing on Kamakura, then we are in the realm of 110-120. 

Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to know what the situation is at Hozon/ToHo, unless one has some insider connections into the Honbu and they double check their registers. But chances are that if an Yamato blade is a zaimei and of adequate quality, it will get elevated to Juyo, so the Juyo/TJ Zufu are very good proxy for the overall population. 

 

Ok i'm wrong there but that does'nt mean Darcy was right. Moreover, what he wrote should be taken with great care. 
 

[Gakusee]

5 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

 

Ok i'm wrong there but that does'nt mean Darcy was right. Moreover, what he wrote should be taken with great care. 
 

 

Of course, one cannot take out of context private correspondence between Jean L and Darcy and just extrapolate.....

I think the point is that overall proper Yamato (ie Koto) signed blades are rare. It almost does not matter how many there are (eg 100, 110, 120, 150, 200) - the population is very small. Jussi's numbers include Muromachi, which one can argue is a bit misleading. 

Mumei Yamato are way more numerous.

 

 

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

Just looked and 7 signed by Tegai smiths who worked during Ōei-bit later. There are Tegai smiths whose active period is spanning from late Nanbokuchō to early Muromachi so I left them in. And 6 signed Shikkake Norinaga blades that I assume are likely to be Muromachi period work (I cannot really identify their age properly but they are possibly by later generation). In overall I feel the most important Yamato smiths worked early Kamakura - Ōei, and there should be still 200+ signed ones for them. However to be noted there are lots of smiths who have very few signed works remaining. Then there are some like Tegai Kanenaga and Shikkake Norinaga from whom there are lots of signed items remaining.

 

I liked the example by Okan. I feel the differences when attributing mumei stuff can be extremely small and different people tend to put certain traits to certain stuff. Shikkake - Tegai - Senjuin, etc. I feel just identification as Kamakura - Nanbokuchō Yamato work is good regardless of towards which the sword will be put. Of course the higher quality item it is, the easier it can be to see some of the identifying traits which made the experts choose one way or another.

[Jacques D.]

Michael, 

 

Quote

 

Though Nagamitsu is held in high regard there is no way of knowing who made a Nagamitsu (they are all talented students but the point is that Nagamitsu is basically a 

brand name and the average westerner cannot tell the difference between the master's work and one of the students). we have the same problem with Rai

Kunitoshi in that the NBTHK doesn't differentiate the various daimei works. If someone studies and takes the time as I've done then the six signatures stand 

out clearly. So we need to draw some conclusions from that. True master's work should be elevated a bit among the daimei. 

 

 

That's what I was referring to.

[Gakusee]

2 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Michael, 

 

 

That's what I was referring to.

I see. OK, I agree - people should not follow blindly but understand what is being said in context. Nagamitsu, Rai, etc - these are minefields and a lot of study, research and understanding is required. 

[Nihontocollector752]

Again, you guys can only comment on juyo blades because all data revolves around those document based swords, so how many Thozon and hozon signed Yamato swords exist @Jussi Ekholm

 

Also, you think there isn't a visible difference between Tegai and Shikkake? @Jussi Ekholm @Gakusee

[Utopianarian]

Something I failed to mention which may prove to have some significance to help with attribution. The nie is more prominent on the shinogi-ji very dense and thick and highly reflective more so on the bottom part of the blade with of course masame graining pattern. Surprised how reflective the nie looks on the lower shinogi-ji especially with the old polish and what remains of the old burnishing. I tried to research any schools or smith known for that type of feature but can’t find any more information.

[Nihontocollector752]

I hate to say this but your sword is not polished enough to see adequate nie.

[Utopianarian]

The nie is bright and polish in excellent condition on the shinogi-ji. The hada polish not so good. The question still remains if anybody knows if this specific trait has any relevance or not.

[Utopianarian]

1 hour ago, Nihontocollector752 said:

I hate to say this but you're sword is not polished enough to see adequate nie.

 

[Matsunoki]

George, Hello,

Can I just ask…….are you saying the “effect” that we can see in these two images, ie the “whiteish dots” all over the blade are nie? I have a blade with very similar characteristics and they are in fact the remains of very very fine surface powder rust that show up like this at a certain lighting angle.

 

 

[Utopianarian]

Surface powder and rust buildup is evident on the blade but are not reflective. The zoomed in pic is reflective nie when a light source is cast upon it. I don’t think “rust or surface powder ” is congruent or have much in respect to luminescent properties 

[Matsunoki]

Please correct me if I’m wrong but the shinogi-ji is usually burnished with a steel burnishing rod (as opposed to stones) ie  a uniform smooth mirror finish and nie are not usually visible in that part of the blade? Powder rust leaves minute surface pits, almost microscopic, which, if not removed by polishing, can create an illusion. 
However you have the blade in hand and an eye is far better than an image!

[Nihontocollector752]

It's rust. 

 

Surface nie cannot be seen using random lighting and images from a phone or substandard setting, you need a finely polished sword and the right environment. 

 

There is a difference between grain and nie. To know is to know and when you know you'll know.

 

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

I made new topic for signed Yamato stuff, as I don't want to derail this one and it is a nice subject to discuss. https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/42156-signed-yamato-works/

 

I know there are slight differences within the 5 schools of Yamato tradition. Unfortunately I cannot really tell them apart... I admit I am not good at kantei for mumei stuff. I can't yet grasp the slight differences and how they affect towards the attribution.