Are these tsuba real?

[Xander Chia]

Is this an inlaid piece of iron?

[Bugyotsuji]

Yes.

 

Edit, oh you mean the fan! That could be Takanikubori 高肉彫 with the surrounding iron removed…(?)

[Xander Chia]

Can someone tell me more about this maker? I think it says “江府住恒?” “Kofu Ju tsune-“ I can’t tell what the last kanji is supposed to be.

[Bugyotsuji]

The last Kanji is 寿 written in old form 壽 etc. (Can be Toshi, Yoshi etc. in names.) Member of an Edo metal workers group.

[PietroParis]

It might be another follower of Tatsutoshi, although he is not listed in Sesko's genealogy.

 

 

[Xander Chia]

On 11/28/2022 at 11:17 AM, Bugyotsuji said:

The last Kanji is 寿 written in old form 壽 etc. (Can be Toshi, Yoshi etc. in names.) Member of an Edo metal workers group.

Thanks Piers! Thought it looked like 寺 but knew that couldn’t be it.

[Xander Chia]

21 hours ago, PietroParis said:

It might be another follower of Tatsutoshi, although he is not listed in Sesko's genealogy.

 

 

Thanks for sharing Pietro! Wish mine was in better condition like the ones in that thread.

[Bugyotsuji]

In my book here it says that Efu Tsunetoshi was a member of the Edo Namitoshi group. (around Koka)

p.103 "恒壽、江府、江戸並壽一派　弘化"

[PietroParis]

There is a 並壽 Namitoshi - abundantly represented in the thread linked above - who was a student of Tatsutoshi. Maybe it's the one mentioned in Piers' book, and Tsunetoshi was in turn his student?

 

To console Xander, this Namitoshi tsuba from the other thread looks similar to his, but in even worse condition...

 

[Bugyotsuji]

There is only one Namitoshi listed, in Edo, and he is described as being a student of Inoue Tatsutoshi, and as making many iron sukashi tsuba, around Koka. (Reverting to the easier modern Kanji here).

p133 古今金工全集

Quote

並寿、江戸、井上辰寿の門人、鉄透かし鍔の作多し。弘化

 

[Xander Chia]

I find it amazing how all of you guys are able to find so much information on such things. I don’t have any reference books yet so all I have is google which usually comes up nada.

[Xander Chia]

These are the last 2 of the batch. I’m guessing the one on top has a chidori design. What are those things behind the torii gate on the bottom tsuba? They remind me of something you’d find under the sea but there are birds so that’s definitely wrong.

[Spartancrest]

Karigane - Wild geese. Possible "Ken" blades on the top guard - Looks like Akasaka to me.  https://tsuba.info/akasaka/  With Owari also a possibility.

 

[Fuuten]

On 11/23/2022 at 1:16 PM, Fuuten said:

In the spirit of this thread, this tsuba passed by couple weeks ago.

 

Odd openwork and at first glance an odd copper tsuba but the (apologies, correct term for the pattern escapes me atm), careful outward radiating grooves (sunbeams from point on horizon), made me think it was perhaps more interesting than I gave it credit for, only having half-recorded seeing it while browsing. Maybe new and not a masterwork but interesting I thought. Interested in opinions on what it is. Thank you in advance.

 

Because the thread went silent > bump for more feedback on this tsuba. Would love to hear more impressions/thoughts on it. I like it but have no real idea on what it is or what school or modern worker might be responsible for it. Thanks in advance.

[Spartancrest]

The design is called "Genjimon"  From the "Tale of Genji" usually refering to a particular chapter in the book- each chapter having a different symbol.

 

 

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/six-tsuba-hand-guards-edo-period-1615-1868-17th-t-12-c-f0841e1a9d

 

[Fuuten]

Dear Dale, 

 

I knew the title but not about the associated shapes! Very interesting, you gave me food for thought. Thank you very much

 

Nr 31 seems to have similar features to the open work if you replace the centerline with the ana. Also on the second image one side matches though I'm not sure how it would translate to the mirrored/symmetrical on the copper one. I'm going to look into it a little further. Intriguing!

[Xander Chia]

On 12/3/2022 at 10:26 AM, Xander Chia said:

These are the last 2 of the batch. I’m guessing the one on top has a chidori design. What are those things behind the torii gate on the bottom tsuba? They remind me of something you’d find under the sea but there are birds so that’s definitely wrong.

Thanks for the identification of the tsuba up top Dale. Any clue what the “pillar” looking things in the background of the second tsuba are supposed to be?

[Spartancrest]

Xander, from their placement in the background they must be trees of a considerable size, if it was a European landscape I would say Poplar trees and there is a species of Poplar native to Japan/Korea and Mongolia. They could also be "Maidenhair" or "Ginkgo Biloba" from the gold colour. Or any number of tall pine trees. Impossible to be definite. If they were in the foreground you might expect to see "horsetails" Jap. [sugina (杉菜)] or reeds. But the size and placement of the Torii makes that unlikely. You might have to put it down as "Artistic license" the gnarled tree in front looks huge. The flying geese must be close to the observer as they all look the same size. JMO

[Xander Chia]

I found 3 tsuba which look quite similar to one another. Are these cast copies? The first 2 pictures also look like they are the same tsuba judging from the sekigane. Would be happy to hear everyone’s thoughts on this.

[Xander Chia]

On 12/14/2022 at 7:04 AM, Spartancrest said:

Xander, from their placement in the background they must be trees of a considerable size, if it was a European landscape I would say Poplar trees and there is a species of Poplar native to Japan/Korea and Mongolia. They could also be "Maidenhair" or "Ginkgo Biloba" from the gold colour. Or any number of tall pine trees. Impossible to be definite. If they were in the foreground you might expect to see "horsetails" Jap. [sugina (杉菜)] or reeds. But the size and placement of the Torii makes that unlikely. You might have to put it down as "Artistic license" the gnarled tree in front looks huge. The flying geese must be close to the observer as they all look the same size. JMO

My apologies Dale, I thought I sent a reply thanking you but it looks like I didn’t.

[Spartancrest]

2 hours ago, Xander Chia said:

I found 3 tsuba which look quite similar to one another

These are expertly done 'replicas' there are thousands of these - believe me thousands! Two general types - [1] those like your images with 'iroe' or colouring and [2] a plain one metal colour lot. Attached is an image from a bulk buy auction of the plain coloured ones - cheaper by the dozen! I have seen one mounted sword with the same design tsuba which may have been the pattern the rest are taken from, but with so many about I wouldn't be one hundred percent sure. These are not utsushi there is no individuality in them. 

The other image shows the nakago-ana - also usually identical except in this case where it was re-cut for a blade and the cuts have been made through the faked sekigane. [ If it had been real sekigane it could have been removed rather than cut through.]

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/Japanese-tsuba-oni-and-priest-large-katana

There may be two sizes available for Katana and Wakizashi

 

 

A single coppery example same tagane-ato around the nakago-ana.

[Spartancrest]

I did a page on these replicas back in 2016.

 

 

A plain one going through auction - https://www.jauce.com/auction/f1041785451

 

Likewise I did the same with a "frog" or "toad" tsuba - examples turn up from time to time and even feature in some of the "best" museums even if in fact they are cast fakes! [the Rijksmuseum, Ashmolean and the V&A all have a copy.]

 

I only point this one out as a rather poor example has turned up for auction. https://www.jauce.com/auction/b1090145297  or  https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/b1090145297

[Spartancrest]

On 4/28/2023 at 7:43 PM, Xander Chia said:

Are these cast copies?

 

This is what happens when modern copies are made using another copy as the basis for their creation - a down hill spiral!

https://sbg-sword-store.sword-buyers-guide.com/wordpress/forge-direct-custom-options/

[Xander Chia]

On 4/28/2023 at 7:29 PM, Spartancrest said:

I did a page on these replicas back in 2016.

 

 

A plain one going through auction - https://www.jauce.com/auction/f1041785451

 

Likewise I did the same with a "frog" or "toad" tsuba - examples turn up from time to time and even feature in some of the "best" museums even if in fact they are cast fakes! [the Rijksmuseum, Ashmolean and the V&A all have a copy.]

 

I only point this one out as a rather poor example has turned up for auction. https://www.jauce.com/auction/b1090145297  or  https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/b1090145297

Thanks Dale! This is more in depth than I had expected. So people have they been faking this tsuba for hundreds of years? I’ve actually seen quite a few modern repros of this Futen and Oni tsuba before, didn’t know the “real” ones were also reproductions themselves.

[Spartancrest]

2 hours ago, Xander Chia said:

didn’t know the “real” ones were also reproductions themselves.

I think I would be hard pressed to find a "real" one, I feel there must be one, probably held in a Japanese museum and used as the basic design - there are lots of examples where the Chinese have been able to make copies simply from images in existing books or from on-line museum collections. The copies sometimes have to resort to the reverse side being from another guard entirely if the image of both sides is unavailable! I think this particular design are made in Japan and the quality is reasonably high. There are a number of designs made as museum replicas, some better than others, I have no evidence so far, but the quantity would suggest to me these ones were made as a souvenir - of what I have no idea? 

[Xander Chia]

Managed to get the top one just before 2022 ended. Received the bottom one yesterday. Unfortunately I’m gonna have to sell one of them as my current funds are quite low (too many impulse purchases :p).

[Xander Chia]

How does one figure out the school, time period and approximate price of a tsuba? I’ve tried searching online but I am unable to find anything similar to some of mine. I understand that books can provide a ton of information but from what I’ve seen, each book only covers a limited number of designs. How do I tell if a tsuba is worth what it’s listed? On top of that, I’m trying to sell some of my tsuba but have no idea how to price them.

[Bugyotsuji]

54 minutes ago, Xander Chia said:

How does one figure out the school, time period and approximate price of a tsuba? I’ve tried searching online but I am unable to find anything similar to some of mine. I understand that books can provide a ton of information but from what I’ve seen, each book only covers a limited number of designs. How do I tell if a tsuba is worth what it’s listed? On top of that, I’m trying to sell some of my tsuba but have no idea how to price them.

Welcome to the wonderful world of tsuba!

Very good questions. 

 

Our motto

"No end in sight to the learning process"

[Spartancrest]

Examples of nanban prices through one auction site - 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/s1081006632

https://www.jauce.com/auction/e1088481174

https://www.jauce.com/auction/s1090739746

https://www.jauce.com/auction/h1044687721

https://www.jauce.com/auction/v1065267003

 

Or search this link for examples closer to your own  https://www.jauce.com/search/tsuba+南蛮?auccat=2084057815 - prices are going to be all over the shop - whatever the buyer will pay, sometimes the seller is overly optimistic!.  Also try doing a google search with these -  鍔 南蛮

[Xander Chia]

2 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

Examples of nanban prices through one auction site - 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/s1081006632

https://www.jauce.com/auction/e1088481174

https://www.jauce.com/auction/s1090739746

https://www.jauce.com/auction/h1044687721

https://www.jauce.com/auction/v1065267003

 

Or search this link for examples closer to your own  https://www.jauce.com/search/tsuba+南蛮?auccat=2084057815 - prices are going to be all over the shop - whatever the buyer will pay, sometimes the seller is overly optimistic!.  Also try doing a google search with these -  鍔 南蛮

Thanks for helping search up specific examples Dale! However my question was more about all tsuba in general. Are there any resources to help me identify most of the various types? Or do I just purchase more books? I have a few more that I didn’t post here as they are not the best in quality/condition.