Are these tsuba real?

[Xander Chia]

I’ve been thinking about getting another tsuba for awhile but I’m still unsure on how to go about identifying fakes. As of now I can tell which are obvious fakes (at least I hope I can) by seeing if they have casting bubbles/lines. Any other tips are welcome! I found a few that I am interested in but unsure of. I’m hoping to know whether they are genuine or not.

 

On a side note, should I post all future enquiries on the same thread or create new ones?

[rkg]

Although the condition on several of them leave a bit to be desired, at first glance only the last one in the group looks "off" to me - it might actually be period, but the shrimp looks odd - almost like it is lacquered or painted or something, and I don't know about that surface...

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

[ROKUJURO]

As Richard mentioned, they are authentic except the last one. But they are medium to low quality and some not in good shape, so you have to ask yourself why you would want to buy them. 

TSUBA no. 3 is probably a TENPO TSUBA (decorated with hot stamps), but looks as if the patina has been removed.
TSUBA no. 4 (two Ginger sprouts) might be a HEIANJO TSUBA which is not too bad, but one has to see it in hand.

You can get this quality any day, so there is no rush, you don't miss something unique or precious. Buy some good books first and take your time to learn and see! Actually, you will learn just by looking at many TSUBA in case an explanation is accompanying them. 

[Xander Chia]

Thanks Richard. I thought the paint on the lobster seemed a bit off as well but just wanted to confirm.

 

Hi Jean, I’m collecting such pieces as I don’t want to spend too much on tsuba at the moment. I normally wouldn’t get something like tsuba no. 5 but it’s being sold at quite a low price. And 3 as well because it looks like, as you mentioned, it had its patina removed. But the first 4 tsuba are being sold as a bundle.  Thanks for the informations on tsuba no. 3, 4 and 8. I agree that I should probably spend more on books, thanks for the advice!

 

I’ve actually got another one to ask about though. Is this a gimei tsuba (no. 2 in this post)? The first image is taken from aoi Japan for comparison.

[ROKUJURO]

Xander,

this is a very solid ECHIZEN KINAI TSUBA in seemingly good condition! Nothing wrong with that. Cleaning a bit with a pointed piece of antler will improve the looks and prevent rust coming up. Be careful with that nice gold decoration!

Your attitude in collecting TSUBA is your personal thing, and there is nothing to criticize. Perhaps in the long range, you will develop another look at the subject and no longer enjoy the lower quality TSUBA. The problem is then that these cheaper TSUBA will not sell easily. But perhaps that is not really a problem...

[Xander Chia]

I received the last of the items 3 days ago and finally got around to photographing them. Pardon my lack of photography skills (and the mess in the background). First tusba is signed 兼重? Can’t tell what the second one is.

 

[Xander Chia]

Got a couple questions on these 3. Both the echizen kinai tsuba are signed differently, is this because the signature is shared by multiple people?

 

As for the third/fourth tsuba, I found that the interior of the nakago ana is shiny. As in exposed metal shiny. Maybe it was cleaned? Or perhaps the tsuba itself is a fake?

 

 

[Spartancrest]

I can't help with number 1

 

Number 2 ? Like this one -

 

is a Jakushi style. Signed JAKUSHI - this name was used by a famous line of artists (8 generations) working in Nagasaki between 1690 and 1878.

 

Number 3? - Myoga - gingerplant,  probably as a Mon or family crest, Heianjo  see this link to a similar example.

 https://www.samuraimuseum.jp/shop/product/antique-tsuba-for-samurai-sword-t-388/

 

The Kinai were made by a school of people so it is not uncommon to see the signatures vary a little. All look good to me.

The plain one may simply have been removed recently from a blade and I am sure it looks correct to me.

 

Pretty good pieces all round. 

[ROKUJURO]

Xander,

Dale has given you solid comments to learn from. The plain TSUBA is signed MASAHIRO I think. The first TSUBA is signed KANESHIGE.

[Xander Chia]

4 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

I can't help with number 1

 

Number 2 ? Like this one -

 

is a Jakushi style. Signed JAKUSHI - this name was used by a famous line of artists (8 generations) working in Nagasaki between 1690 and 1878.

 

Number 3? - Myoga - gingerplant,  probably as a Mon or family crest, Heianjo  see this link to a similar example.

 https://www.samuraimuseum.jp/shop/product/antique-tsuba-for-samurai-sword-t-388/

 

The Kinai were made by a school of people so it is not uncommon to see the signatures vary a little. All look good to me.

The plain one may simply have been removed recently from a blade and I am sure it looks correct to me.

 

Pretty good pieces all round. 

Thanks for the info on those tsuba! Was hoping that was the case with tsuba no. 3/4. Was concerned as the tsuba has a matte black look in person and the mekugi ana looked like someone had just filed it. I’m currently contemplating on selling tsuba 1 and 2 as my main goal was the heianjo tsuba.

[Xander Chia]

14 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

Xander,

Dale has given you solid comments to learn from. The plain TSUBA is signed MASAHIRO I think. The first TSUBA is signed KANESHIGE.

Thanks for the translation! Seems like I managed to translate them properly. The seller included a slip of paper which wrote 正広 instead. I was enquiring about a gimei tadahiro recently so the kanji is still fresh in my mind.

[ROKUJURO]

Xander,

MASAHIRO written as 正広 is correct. The HIRO is just a modern KANJI version. 

Generally speaking, a MEI has to confirm the work of a maker. A MEI does not make (or increase) the value of a TSUBA.

Your initial question was: ARE THESE TSUBA REAL? This means to me that you are struggling to differentiate between real TSUBA and fakes, copies or UTSUSHI.

For a beginner, I think it is important to see many good TSUBA (or at least pictures thereof). Buying many TSUBA may be a way to see many TSUBA, but it is not the cheapest way I think.

Training your eyes and understanding traditional techniques will help you to decide what is good work and what is not. Buy what you like, and look at it also from the artistical and aesthetical side. Buying a cheap TSUBA like that "JAKUSHI" does not teach you anything, and it is not a pleasure to look at. It may well be a genuine Japanese TSUBA, but it is nothing one should collect. 

Lastly, there are really good TSUBA at reasonable prices available, so there is no need to hunt for bargains.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all,

 

Jean stated in his last post-

 

“Training your eyes and understanding traditional techniques will help you to decide what is good work and what is not. Buy what you like, and look at it also from the artistical and aesthetical side. Buying a cheap TSUBA like that "JAKUSHI" does not teach you anything, and it is not a pleasure to look at. It may well be a genuine Japanese TSUBA, but it is nothing one should collect.

Lastly, there are really good TSUBA at reasonable prices available, so there is no need to hunt for bargains.”

 

Well, the only tsuba I can afford are cheap type tsuba (it is the only tsuba I can afford to collect, I hunt for bargains, and they are a pleasure to look at).  I never spend over $250.00 U.S. dollars for a tsuba (the tsuba I have purchased cost me anywhere from $40.00 U.S. dollars to $250.00).  Why?  Because that is all I can afford.  But also, if I get “bit”, if what turns out to be a fake or reproduction tsuba, I don’t lose a lot of money!

 

I really enjoy my collection of tsuba (over 120 and counting!).  They are a pleasure to look at, hanging on my walls.  I learn a lot from these “cheaper” tsuba.  The techniques used in making them, the Japanese legends that are sometimes depicted on the piece, the different materials used on the piece, and the intricate designs (yes, even on a “cheap” tsuba), and other learning experiences.

 

Now, maybe unlike others, I will never be able to afford a beautiful museum piece type tsuba.  Maybe others can, and that is great for them!  But I still look at books of tsuba collections at museums and just “drool”!

 

Anyway, I feel that someone must give these lower quality and lower priced tsuba a “good home”.  Hey, that is what I do!!

 

Hurrah!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

 

 

[roger dundas]

Here on the Tosogu site Bob Morrison has been posting pieces from his collection under "A series of fittings (or how not to build a collection) and a second thread just "How not to build a collection".

It would be worth your while to start at the beginning of those postings and go through them. IMO.

Roger j

[Dan tsuba]

Roger,

 

Thank your for your advise.  Although, since I am old I am "kind of slow"!  I don't understand?   What do you mean in referring me to the posts by Bob Morrison?  It appears to me that several (if not all !!) of those tsuba would be well "beyond my means" in cash outlay.  Although the information provided on the motifs are interesting.  Could you please explain why it is "worth my while".

Thank you very much,

 

With respect,

Dan

[roger dundas]

Dan,

Just so you can get a feel for the range of tsuba available, the various themes and production techniques, the quality and condition of the higher end pieces for comparison.

At my stage of life with one foot in the grave, I too can't afford the cost of the wonderful tsuba sometimes shown here either, then there are the great pieces locked up in museums and the best collections, almost never to come on the market (but sometimes they do when a collector dies). But I can never the less enjoy and admire them.

I have only about 40 pieces, also have bought within my financial limitations, have quite a few pieces I really like for varying reasons such as the composition, but mostly my admiration for the technical and artistic skills of the craftsmen and also for some I like to think are earlier pieces when their owners earned their keep as real warrior men.

I don't have many showing artic skills, those buggers are usually too expensive for me.

I think that's it.

Roger j

[1kinko]

Dan- fly to the NCJSC show next August. You’ll see everything from cheap to gorgeous and get to handle them and talk with other enthusiasts.

[Steves87]

The other issue for collectors is exchange rate. A 75usd Tsuba is actually about 130aud for me after paypal adds their cut and that's not including local taxes and the post covid shipping rates of 35-75aud on top. Bidding against someone who's primary currency is USD is almost impossible these days. The cheap bargains are a life saver

[Spartancrest]

Xander, I see you wear plastic gloves when handling your tsuba. While most people don't bother very much as the tsuba was often meant to be handled and even gets a lot of its patina in this way - some can be damaged by handling Steves87  and I have been doing some research on just that subject and he is forwarding that information to a professor who is doing a paper. I found one example yesterday which shows fingerprint damage in an upcoming auction.

So good for going the extra effort in care of your collection.

 

[Steves87]

yep, that is a good practice to get into. Not sure how critical it is for iron guards, but any of the softer metals/alloys, it is important. Just in the last couple of weeks while searching, enough cases have appeared to know that it is a problem. 

[mecox]

Xander, the two Kinai tsuba are from the later period of the school of the Rokudai (6th) Takahashi master, who had a number of deshi working for him (so variations in the basic mei).   

They are good basic work in smaller tsuba, probably often given as presents.

Here is a summary I did back in 2006

SUMMARY OF ECHIZEN KINAI TSUBAKŌ (on.net)

[roger dundas]

By the way Dan tsuba, my point about looking at what Bob Morrison posted wasn't aimed at you and I'm not sure why you seemed to get a bit "uppity" about it. It was Xandra it was aimed at. You confused me a bit when you inserted yourself into the thread followed by a"please explain" demand.

"Old and slow" you may be by your own admission but you can rest easy, enjoy where you find yourself in life's progression.

Roger j

[Dan tsuba]

Roger,

 

Thanks for the explanation.  You are correct, and I apologize for any misunderstanding. 

 

Onward!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Fuuten]

In the spirit of this thread, this tsuba passed by couple weeks ago.

 

Odd openwork and at first glance an odd copper tsuba but the (apologies, correct term for the pattern escapes me atm), careful outward radiating grooves (sunbeams from point on horizon), made me think it was perhaps more interesting than I gave it credit for, only having half-recorded seeing it while browsing. Maybe new and not a masterwork but interesting I thought. Interested in opinions on what it is. Thank you in advance.

 

[Spartancrest]

Axel, the term you are looking for is "Amida Yasuri"  the Halo of the Buddha. Very faint and delicate on that piece. I think amazing skill, can you imagine working your way around and coming up short or too long in the spacing? Getting the depths all the same- like I say amazing, yet you need a microscope to see it!

[Steves87]

you are lucky you got it, I was going to bid on that the week before (something else came up), then I was going to bid and I saw there was another bid already, so I left it. congratulations! a nice cheap pick-up

[Xander Chia]

On 11/23/2022 at 10:04 AM, Spartancrest said:

Xander, I see you wear plastic gloves when handling your tsuba. While most people don't bother very much as the tsuba was often meant to be handled and even gets a lot of its patina in this way - some can be damaged by handling Steves87  and I have been doing some research on just that subject and he is forwarding that information to a professor who is doing a paper. I found one example yesterday which shows fingerprint damage in an upcoming auction.

So good for going the extra effort in care of your collection.

 

I’ve always been kinda confused as to why some items are “meant to be handled.” I kinda understand the importance of patination but I personally find it odd as preservation of these items is often held as the utmost important thing. If I remember correctly there is a thread about whether nakago should be oiled. Wouldn’t patination eventually remove all traces or at least diminish the mei and yasurimei? I mean to put it in simple terms isn’t it basically “destroying” the outer layer of the metal?

 

I’m surprised there’s a paper being written in this subject though.

[Xander Chia]

On 11/22/2022 at 8:13 AM, roger dundas said:

Here on the Tosogu site Bob Morrison has been posting pieces from his collection under "A series of fittings (or how not to build a collection) and a second thread just "How not to build a collection".

It would be worth your while to start at the beginning of those postings and go through them. IMO.

Roger j

Thanks for the advice! I’ve seen some really nice tsuba in those threads. They seem like they would be out of my budget though. I’m still fairly new and I don’t think I’ll be able to appreciate the craftsmanship of that level as of now.

 

These tsuba that I purchased are actually an impulse buy, I had already deposited a sum of money intended for some pottery. Didn’t expect the bids to rise as high as they did so I decided why not get another tsuba since withdrawing the money would incur an additional fee. Seems like I always buy more than initially planned and ended up with multiple. Also got some other items as well.

[Fuuten]

On 11/24/2022 at 2:24 AM, Steves87 said:

you are lucky you got it, I was going to bid on that the week before (something else came up), then I was going to bid and I saw there was another bid already, so I left it. congratulations! a nice cheap pick-up

Dear Steven,

I'm not entirely sure to what tsuba your post was meant for. Incase it was meant for the odd copper tsuba I did not bid 😗

[Steves87]

4 hours ago, Fuuten said:

Dear Steven,

I'm not entirely sure to what tsuba your post was meant for. Incase it was meant for the odd copper tsuba I did not bid 😗

yep, that was the one, no problems, I misunderstood!