Dai inspection mark

[John C]

Hello everyone:

I am new to this site and, as you may have guessed, this is my first post. So please let me know if this post should be part of some other topic. I have a question about a Dai mark on the mune of what I believe to be a Showa era Wakazashi. The mark is just above what I think is the kanji for the number 7. There is a space then 4 diagonal tick marks. The research I have done suggests that both marks were used as inspection marks at one point by the Kokura arsenal. What I can't figure out is 1) why both marks would be on the same sword; 2) what the tick marks mean; 3) the time frame; and 4) were wakazashis even made there? There is a mei on the sword that may not be genuine (Minamoto Sadamori kami(?). There are no other marks or stamps that I can find. Any assistance you all could provide would be greatly appreciated. Regards, John C.

.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Can we get some opinions from our translators @SteveM @Kiipu @BANGBANGSAN ?  Looks more like a "6 7" to me, but he horizontal stroke is missing if the second mark is a 7.  The dai or Tai stamp I'm aware of has a hexagon around it.

 

@John C - On most blades, the hash marks correspond to numbers stamped on the fittings.  This would be Roman numeral "4", so does your blade come with fittings?  If so, is there a "4" on the seppa and tsuba?

[SteveM]

No idea. Kind of looks like 大 (dai), and the one below kind of looks like 七 (nana/shichi) but its a bit of a stretch.

Given the small real estate of that area, and the (probably) hasty chisel work with which these marks were applied, it's hard to be definitive. 

[John C]

Thank you Bruce and Steve for the input. As for other marks, the tsuka, saya, and other fittings were not military and I could not find any other marks on them. I found one reference that suggested the Dai (or O, or Tai, or Y as in Yamato) was used at the Tokyo Arsenal 2nd factory in Kokura at least on the Nambu pistol. Additionally, I found another reference that listed the second mark as a principal inspection mark at the same factory (that may have been from a page posted by you, Bruce). Here are some further pictures of the sword, which may help in identifying it. Its overall length is 57.5cm with a 44.1cm cutting edge. The registration card indicated it was registered in Okayama Prefecture in 1965. And thank you all again for the assistance.

 

[SteveM]

I'm not sure that's an arsenal sword. Looks to be much older. Registration cards were usually not issued to arsenal swords in the past. Can you give us a shot of the whole nakago, and of the registration card?

[John C]

Steve:

I have 2 more pics for you...the nakago and the registration card. Much appreciated. John C.

 

[SteveM]

Minamoto Sadamori.

 

I'm only seeing one Sadamori in Tokuno's index, a Bungō Takada smith from Daiei (1521-1527). Not enough information to say much more. I think this is definitely an older sword, whether it is from the 1500's or not is something that will require a bit more digging. No telling if the signature is authentic. The signature on your sword is a pretty big departure from the one authenticated example I've found on the internet. 

http://kako.nipponto.co.jp/swords2/KT221558.htm

 

 

 

[John C]

Thank you Steve. I had the same thoughts. Could be any number of reasons there for a gimei; student signature, presentation piece, or just attempted fraud. That's why I was focusing on this being a Showa era sword with those mune marks. I guess another explanation would be a civilian donated sword during WWII. Either way, I wasn't convinced by the signature, however I thought the blade looked like it was hand forged - possibly a gendaito? There is a blob on the uru side of the nakago that could have once been some sort of stamp...or maybe I'm just seeing things. Thank you again, John C.

[BANGBANGSAN]

On 10/5/2022 at 8:37 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Can we get some opinions from our translators @SteveM @Kiipu @BANGBANGSAN ?  Looks more like a "6 7" to me, but he horizontal stroke is missing if the second mark is a 7.  The dai or Tai stamp I'm aware of has a hexagon around it.

 

@John C - On most blades, the hash marks correspond to numbers stamped on the fittings.  This would be Roman numeral "4", so does your blade come with fittings?  If so, is there a "4" on the seppa and tsuba?

本 or 夲？

[John C]

Trystan: Thank you for the reply. Unfortunately, the blade did not come with original fittings. Could the "shichi" be the word Na or a principal inspection mark? My feeling is it was a civilian sword donated to the military. Possibly a crew sword?

Thank you again, John C. 

[Bruce Pennington]

John,

 

I admit, many inspector stamps are poorly struck, but with this mark, I can't see how it would be a "Na".  Here's the Na:

[John C]

Ah yes, Bruce. I stand corrected. I meant to say "Hi". There was a book page posted on another thread that listed marks used by swordsmiths. Q-13 on that chart shows a very similar mark. Thank you for catching that.

Regards, John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

John,

 

I'm with the other guys on this, in that it's most likely an older blade brought to the war.  I my knowledge, arsenals didn't stamp older blades.  "Hi" was used by the Mantetsu operation, but I don't know of an arsenal that used it.  These marks are likely from the original smith.  I have seen all sorts of marks on blade nakago mune of old blades, some pretty elaborate!  I suspect your original thought about the top item being "Dai" is likely correct.  The intent of the bottom mark is obscured enough by time and pock-marks that we may not be able to decipher it. 

 

Here's what I see as possible marks:

 

 

[John C]

I have taken an updated picture of the mune that shows the marks more clearly. The first I suspect is still the dai/tai/O kanji. The second now appears to be a SE katakana mark. Could the dai kanji (big, bigness, large) actually mean size? I still can't figure out why these two marks would be together.

Thank you for looking again at this. I appreciate everyone's efforts.

Regards, John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

Wow, much better picture!  John, I would post your blade on the Nihonto Forum and ask for an age evaluation.  They'll need shots of full-length bare blade, along with the close-ups you have of the hamon and hada, full nakago, and a close one of the blade tip.  I'd really like to know. 

 

Edit: Does the paper state an era for the blade?

 

I've double checked my files and the blades I have recorded with the Dai/Tai stamp, have them on the blade, just outside the habaki, and they have the "江" of the Matsue Supervisory Unit of Kokura Army Arsenal on the mune.  The "セ" was used by the 2nd Factory of Kokura Army Arsenal.  So, this is starting to sound like a Kokura practice and your blade might have been processed by them during the war. 

 

I looked for Sadamori in Sesko's book and the Nihonto Club list, don't see a Showa era smith.  But we have seen numerous smiths show up at this forum not on any list.  So, I'm leaning toward a Showa era blade, processed by the Kokura arsenal, made by, or for, the 2nd factory.  As to who puts the dai/tai stamps there - don't know!

[Matsunoki]

John- I can offer no opinion on the stamps and marks or why they are there or who put them there but for my money this is an older traditionally made blade. It looks an ubu sword and it’s a wakizashi…..not commonly produced for the military. The nakago patina and shape do not suggest Showa nor Taisho to me. All the best. Colin

[Kiipu]

Cross-Reference

Correct Mei Translation?

 

I agree with @Jussi Ekholm in that it looks like Taira 平 and not Minamoto 源.

平定守 = Taira Sadamori.

 

The markings on the nakago mune have nothing to do with the Japanese military.

[John C]

Thomas:

Thank you for that confirmation. The research I have done on kanji and katakana had me confused somewhat. It seemed as if the first kanji could be Pei, Minamoto, Hira, bei, or Taira depending on the obscured marks. In truth, I do not have much understanding of syllabary languages, though I know they are highly nuanced depending on context. 

 

Thanks again, John C.