WW2 Japanese sword (Fukumoto AMAHIDE)

[Swords]

If I can get any  additional information about this sword smith I would appreciate it To me the hamon looks unique Dose he make good swords 

 

[Brian]

To me, this looks like a Showato and not a Gendaito.
Interesting that his pics cut off where any arsenal stamp would be.

[Swords]

Yes I noticed that too 

[Swords]

Brian Sorry Here’s another picture of the tang maybe shed light on the markings I don’t see a Arsenal stamped but there’s another stamped on the tip of my he tang dont know what that stands for 

[Swords]

Might help if I send the picture 

[Dave R]

 To the best of my knowledge his atelier/factory made both Gendai and Showato to order, some of them very individual indeed. He might have bypassed the whole stamp system anyway. His "mixed metal specials" were stunning, and confuse a lot of people into thinking they are current Chinese. Do a search, there is a fair bit about him on this site.

[Nicholas]

Is this the same Amahide?

[Swords]

There is alot  of information about (Fukumoto AMAHIDE) on this  forum 

he had his own forge and made both showa and Gendaito if he bypass the stamped then which one is this  ? 

 

Also the marking on the tang I can’t find anything as to what it means Maybe special order ?

Can some one elaborate more about this 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Swords]

[Bruno]

 

3 hours ago, Dave R said:

His "mixed metal specials" were stunning

Dave,

 

I have never heard of such special metal used by Amahide. Interesting...

[Dave R]

11 hours ago, Bruno said:

 

Dave,

 

I have never heard of such special metal used by Amahide. Interesting...

 

 Lurking in the deep dark depths of Showato are some very odd blades, made I think for a more showy (see what I did there) taste. They nearly always cause uproar when they turn up, the Chinese product look so like them that I think they were the original inspiration. Also sometimes referred to as  "Han Tanren", Usagiya reckon it's an invented term used by dealers to sell swords. I like them, but as I am often told all my taste is in my mouth.

[SteveM]

Regarding #6, if I recall correctly, the conventional wisdom nowadays is that nobody was using railroad tracks to make swords. 

Maybe using the same kind of steel-making process, or the same kind of billets were used for swords, but I seem to recall that within the last couple of years we kind of gave up on the idea that swords were made from railroad tracks. (Or is my memory playing tricks on me?).

 

Kind of off-topic, but hopefully the diversion will be only a slight one. 

 

 

[Dave R]

You have to watch it with "conventional wisdom" as it's all too often a matter of fashion.... and uninformed opinion. I have had so many go-arounds about this that I am fed up of banging my head on the wall. So here we go, put up or shut up! Post a link or an extract to back up your statement, and if you cannot, then you have to accept the evidence.

[Dave R]

Oh, and this was the composition of those rails.... It's pretty good alloy steel because at the time they could not heat treat them as is done now. The other document is other steels composition in the trade.

[Kiipu]

I think there are some flaws in that F&G list as SteveM has pointed out and it would be nice to have that list updated via current Japanese language sources.

 

Back at the issue at hand though, Seki established a Gifu-ken ritsu kinzoku shikenjō 岐阜県立金属試験場 in April 1937 so it would not surprise me if they had perfected the use of old steels in sword making as Dave indicated.  I believe this entity is still in existence.

関・軍用日本刀

 

As an aside, the Seki swords marked with the 昭 stamp are well made and of good quality.  The establishment of the above facility could be the reason for this.

[SteveM]

Didn't know I was stepping on a sensitive land mine. I was only referring to the Mantetsu-tō comment. Ohmura says 

 

興亜一心刀が満鉄の鉄道レールを原料として製作されたとする謂われのない噂話が、戦後60年を経過した今日でも流通してい
るのは何とも残念である

 

There is an unfounded rumor that Kōa Isshin-tō were made from steel from railroad tracks, which unfortunately has persisted for 60 years from the end of the war to the present day. 

[Dave R]

 

11 hours ago, SteveM said:

There is an unfounded rumor that Kōa Isshin-tō were made from steel from railroad tracks, which unfortunately has persisted for 60 years from the end of the war to the present day. 

 

 A statement that I can agree with, and it's a conflation of unrelated facts that created the error. Mantetsu were a rail company,... Mantetsu made the Koa Isshin swords,... some swords were known to be made from scrap rails,... therefore Koa Isshin were made from scrap rails. Ipso Facto some people got it very wrong, and that's why I spent hours hunting down what was available about the real situation. Just to say though, not all  Mantetsu produced swords were Koa Isshin!

  The problem for Ohmura san is that living in Japan he has no access to Showato, because they are counted as an  illegal weapon there, and this does limit his hands on experience. Nonetheless he is a stirling source of information and a good reference source.

 What started me off on this search was a lecture at the Royal Armories Leeds, where the Curator Emeritus of the Oriental Collection (official title) made a clear statement with detail that "some" WWII Showato were made from reused rail track. I decided to hunt down some references for my own satisfaction. ( Btw, a comment elsewhere by another collector was that given the composition of the steel, if these blades could be water quenched then they would be fearsome cutters!)

 Regarding the above F&G list, it's flawed but still handy and generally correct, but I too would welcome an updated one.... Any volunteers?

  Is it a "sensitive land mine", only in that I am fed up of having to present the same evidence again and again and again, sometimes to the same ruddy people, who never present any evidence or references of their own other than "a bloke down the pub says" or "current wisdom".  

Making a reference to Ohmura is perfectly acceptable though, more than acceptable in fact! The man is a legend.

[Bruce Pennington]

On 10/3/2022 at 2:09 PM, Swords said:

There is alot  of information about (Fukumoto AMAHIDE) on this  forum 

he had his own forge and made both showa and Gendaito if he bypass the stamped then which one is this  ? 

 

Also the marking on the tang I can’t find anything as to what it means Maybe special order ?

Can some one elaborate more about this 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steve,

The hotstamp is of his forge/shop.  It is also found on blades of the other smiths that worked for him - Kanemune, Kunimoto, Hidetoshi, and Masafusa.  It is a personalized variant of one used by  the Shinshinto era Amahide (Masahide).  Discussed on page 33 of the Stamps of the Japanese Sword document, and in Mal Cox's article Ichimonji Minamoto Amahide.

 

As to the Mantetsu discussion, histories of the SMR operation tell that they invented a completely new process of sword making and used the Manchurian steel from their own mines.  While anything else is possible, there is no actual evidence or documentation that backs up such speculation.

[Swords]

Lot’s of info but good history !  I really wanted to know if it was traditional made or arsenal? As far as the hot stamp do you know if that gives a better quality sword or just a reference of that smith As far as mixing metals is that a given fact for this sword 

[Bruce Pennington]

No one knows why some blades were hotstamped and some were not.  As to this blade, I'm a REALLY bad guy to make such judgements, but I'd say it was at least oil-quenched by the dark areas inside the peaks of each 'tooth'.  Clearly, a lot of quality workmanship by beauty of the blade, but probably non-traditionally made.

[Swords]

Thanks Bruce and everyone for the information If it’s oil quench I would think there would be a Arsenal stamped but maybe we’re not always used as said I’m still wondering if different steels were mixed to give or that hamon or was it more speculation 

[Brian]

The idea that all Showato have an arsenal stamp is false. There are a vast percentage of WW2 swords that don't have any stamps and are still not traditionally made.

[ROKUJURO]

Concerning the subject of railway-steel having been used for sword blades, I can report that it would not be suitable for a shock-resistant weapon if used solely. The manganese content is necessary for use as rails, but it leads to an increased hardening depth which would cause breaking in a slashing weapon. Of course it is not impossible to use a small amount of such railway-steel as the carbon amount is just correct for the YAKIBA of a sword, but you would have to add a higher percentage of another steel for the body of resilient sword-blades.  

I have done this myself using old rail steel from a mine that was closed in about 1860. Works okay for knives, but is no wonder-material.

 

[Dave R]

3 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Concerning the subject of railway-steel having been used for sword blades, I can report that it would not be suitable for a shock-resistant weapon if used solely. The manganese content is necessary for use as rails, but it leads to an increased hardening depth which would cause breaking in a slashing weapon. Of course it is not impossible to use a small amount of such railway-steel as the carbon amount is just correct for the YAKIBA of a sword, but you would have to add a higher percentage of another steel for the body of resilient sword-blades.  

I have done this myself using old rail steel from a mine that was closed in about 1860. Works okay for knives, but is no wonder-material.

 

 

 I have to say that when I first came across references to blades made from rail tracks that I had my doubts, which is why I went searching for more information. Old style tracks had different compositions depending on when and where they were made, some were alloyed deliberately, some because of the ore content and some tracks were just high in carbon. Cast iron went through a puddling process to reduce carbon, and blister steel was wrought iron that went through a carburising process.... and was the main material for western blades until quite late! All of these went to make rail track at different times and places.

  Japan's industrial base was overstretched well before 1942 as the Chinese intervention just kept expanding well beyond expectation. I have no doubt at all that the Seki smiths would have preferred a different source of material. I also have no doubt that they would have been well aware of the different qualities and compositions of what they had to work with, and would do the best job they could with it, and it would have been a very competent job indeed.

[dwmc]

On 10/3/2022 at 10:40 AM, Swords said:

Might help if I send the picture 

Most likely Daisaku Daimei by Ido Hidetoshi.  Dave M.

[Swords]

Getting back on track with Fukumoto AMAHIDE) Bruce according to the seller it’s traditional made which I don’t know why he lied 

dose anyone know anything about this seller he’s in Tokyo Japan 

Japanese -swords hq505

[Tensho]

Like most eBay sellers, tread carefully.  Says he's a member of the NBTHK, yet claims most of his items are koto period even ones that blatantly aren't. I bought an item from him awhile back. I'll never buy from him again, put it that way. 

 

Just look at his feedback, or lack thereof. Sells over 40 swords a month for over 10 years yet only has 500 feedback. 

 

 

 

[Swords]

Just curious as why wouldn’t I buy from him again? 

[Tensho]

6 hours ago, Swords said:

Just curious as why wouldn’t I buy from him again? 

I purchased a "Koto" Naginata in shirasaya(well the saya was edo period or so)in "good condition, some scratches no flaws" Pictures showed some staining spots and what looked like some slight surface rust. Which I thought would clean up okay. Mekugi was missing,  I could see in photos as well. Again, none of this mentioned.  Well, I won the auction.

 

And what I received was a Naginata with rust pitting that someone attempted to remove, along with fresh rust, some open grain in a couple places, a Silver foiled habaki that was not made for the blade(too big) and actually damaged the ha-machi from sliding up. The ebu(shaft) was not made for this, or a tsuba and seppa were missing,  hence the missing mekugi(the hole was to high) 

 

I went back and re-checked all the photos. All the rust, and open grain issues were in the photos, but were taken in such a way that you had to know exactly what you were looking at and possibly even question it. The rust showed up a bright silvery color or looked like dried oil. Even looking at some of his stuff now it is exactly the same. 

 

I sent him a message explaining everything. I dont remember exactly the response, but it was something "all items are sold as is, I can not accept returns/import sword) Photos are part of description and you should look more carefully" that was it. I left appropriate feedback and it was removed. 

 

Also, I ended up trading it at a loss. I was new to Naginata and when I listed it I received several messages all claiming it was no older than late Edo period. 

[Bruce Pennington]

22 hours ago, Swords said:

Just curious as why wouldn’t I buy from him again? 

Buying from him is like buying from ebay, in general.  You MUST know what you are doing and know what you are looking for, or at.  He has suppliers in Japan that are doing questionable things, and he sells them "on consignment."  So technically, it is not him doing the misdeeds on the blades, he's just the middle-man.  There are 3 choices about his practice: 1. he's unaware of the gimei stuff, 2.  He's aware of what they are doing and approves, or 3.  He just doesn't care.  All 3 options make his sales a minefield for the inexperienced buyer.