Mid Muramachi period blade

[Jacques]

Sorry to be frank and a bit harsh, but the sword discussed here is a tired sword and this looks very much like a shingane patch

[Alex A]

Not to worry Don, Shingane is very common, especially in older blades.

[Don Wong]

The thought of this blade being heavily polished has crossed my mind. Decisions to be made. I like the fact it’s old, it feels amazing in hand…

[Jacques]

The fact that shingane appears is not always a sign of old age; it depends on the thickness of the kawagane. The Hizento for example are known to have a thin kawagane, so, that you can see some late Shinto blades showing shingane.  And on the very old blades there was no shingane this technique was invented around 1450.

[Utopianarian]

Sort of looks like Sumihada

[Alex A]

14 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

The fact that shingane appears is not always a sign of old age; it depends on the thickness of the kawagane. The Hizento for example are known to have a thin kawagane, so, that you can see some late Shinto blades showing shingane.  And on the very old blades there was no shingane this technique was invented around 1450.

 

Yes, agree.

 

Seen it once in a Tadakuni blade.

 

Also in an Osaka mid Edo blade with narrow kasane. Not that it was over polished, it was slim to start with.

 

Someone may have requested a lightweight blade.

[Franco]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

And on the very old blades there was no shingane this technique was invented around 1450.

 

Citation required?

[Jacques]

Kokan Nagayama connoisseur's book page 33

 

[Franco]

7 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Kokan Nagayama connoisseur's book page 33

 

Exact quote, if you please? 

 

Merci.

 

 

[Jacques]

You don't have this book? Relying only on what is said on the web is not the best solution to progress, there is too much nonsense said on it 

[Don Wong]

So are we saying this blade was intentionally made this way from it’s conception from the Smith for the buyer?

[Don Wong]

Ok, I will measure the kasane as well as other sections on this blade and report back. 

[Jacques]

16 hours ago, Alex A said:

 

Yes, agree.

 

Seen it once in a Tadakuni blade.

 

Also in an Osaka mid Edo blade with narrow kasane. Not that it was over polished, it was slim to start with.

 

Someone may have requested a lightweight blade.

I forgot to say that it also depends on the talent of the swordsmith; if the shaping of the sunobe is not well mastered, there may be places where the kawagane is too thin and leaves the shingane visible after two or three polishings only.

[Franco]

22 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

 And on the very old blades there was no shingane this technique was invented around 1450.

 

11 hours ago, Franco D said:

Exact quote, if you please? 

 

9 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

You don't have this book?

 

Yes, I have this book and read page 33 twice last night. My request still stands, "Exact quote, if you please?"  Take your time, show where page 33 is saying (or any text for that matter) that "very old blades there was no shingane this technique was invented around 1450" ?

 

 

 

 

[Alex A]

Never really give it much thought but pretty sure ive seen Shingane in late Nanbokucho Nobukuni blades.

[Jacques]

1 hour ago, Franco D said:

 

 

 

Yes, I have this book and read page 33 twice last night. My request still stands, "Exact quote, if you please?"  Take your time, show where page 33 is saying (or any text for that matter) that "very old blades there was no shingane this technique was invented around 1450" ?

 

 

 

 

Please stop trolling, the text is sufficiently explicit. 

[Franco]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

Please stop trolling, the text is sufficiently explicit. 

 

Jacques,

 

your statement ...

 

On 10/16/2022 at 2:27 PM, Jacques D. said:

on the very old blades there was no shingane this technique was invented around 1450.

 

... cannot be supported, the least you could do is try to correct it.

x 

[DoTanuki yokai]

 No core no Shingane. 
 But i don’t know if there wasn’t some other construction with coresteel.

[Jacques]

I have a brain and I use it. When I read the word invented I don't need to be told that it didn't exist before because it's obvious. 

[Alex A]

Bit baffled now as to what i saw in the Nanbokucho Nobukuni blades.

 

Looked exactly the same as the image Jacques circled in red.

 

In Aoi images it was obvious, a dark patch of steel with no grain at all, just flat. In the angled images they do, again stood out.

 

[Don Wong]

So shingane technically is a patch. On my blade where Jacque circle ⭕️ it does appear to still have grain, it’s not totally void of grain, right? 
 

Is it that important it was done on this blade, if in fact it has shingane?
 

For me the big question is whether or not this blade was created by the smith in it’s current shape, slender and tapered.

 

Are there any makers in this era that may have done custom smithing to produce this type of blade. Was he thinking outside the box for this era?

 

Or was this blade tired from polishing as stated above.

[francois2605]

 

Quote

shingane (心鉄・心金) – Lit. “core steel.” Steel with a lower

carbon content used for certain sword constructions which require

a sofer core combined with other steels, for example kōbuse-gitae.

 

I think you're confusing shingane with umegane

 

Quote

umegane (埋金) – When blisters of fukure (pockets of air in the steel that were not forced out during the forging process) break and leave a cavity of a certain size, it might be repaired by inserting steel. These steel patches are called umegane (lit. “fill-up steel”). However, as more material has to be removed to insert the umegane, openings often get worse as rust is growing underneath and loosens the patch.

 

It's the repeated polishing of the kawagane which eventually exposes the shingane

[Don Wong]

Ok thanks

[Jacques]

Watch this video and pay particular attention from 21 minutes onwards (Kumi-awase)

 

 

[Don Wong]

Thank you 

[Franco]

13 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

I have a brain and I use it. When I read the word invented I don't need to be told that it didn't exist before because it's obvious. 

 

So, then, Jacques, are you saying this sword is "around 1450" or later since after all you've identified it as being a "tired sword" with what "looks very much like a shingane patch." Is that correct? Is that your call? 

[Franco]

https://www.aoijapan.com/katanagassannbthk-hozon-token/

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jacques]

14 hours ago, Franco D said:

 

So, then, Jacques, are you saying this sword is "around 1450" or later since after all you've identified it as being a "tired sword" with what "looks very much like a shingane patch." Is that correct? Is that your call? 

 

Read again what I exactly wrote and not what you want to see.

[Don Wong]

[Don Wong]

Is it possible this is Mokume circled above in red? I am in the process of taking more critical measurements and researching when I came across a pattern in Hada which is similar.
 

Is it accepted and confirmed it is shingane?  

More thoughts to come….