Mid Muramachi period blade

[Alex A]

5 hours ago, Rivkin said:

almost certainly not Gassan, a dense hada does not match anything of the school and the writing is also a bit too strong and fresh for the school.

Shape wise... looks early but the work is not the best match. Not nearly as active as early Mino, not as periodic as Yoshii, too clustered for Kozori...

they still made strong koshi zori on occasion into 1510-1540, which what I think this is.

With two-three clustered gunome (as long as there are groups of three) one is tempted to say Mino... but a minor Bizen Sukesada I personally feel is also possible. I've seen similar type having green paper to Mino Seki and papering now Bizen. Does not really change much in blade's valuation.

 

 

1510-1540 would include Eisho period onwards, that is precisely the era you find Bizen swords with ana like this.

 

Saying that though, not yet convinced it is Bizen.

 

There is something about the hada and hamon that isn't quite there for that era, but i may be wrong. Might be the state of polish. Hamon looks too neat.

 

Its a books out kantei job, 

 

Leaning that way though.

[ROKUJURO]

...and another point: The MEKUGI ANA look drilled and not punched.

And Don: the time period is called MUROMACHI, not Muramuchi.

[Bugyotsuji]

MUROMACHI is correct. Thanks 🙏 for pointing this out. It’s being coming up wrong repeatedly in the New Posts and possibly confusing people.

[Alex A]

On closer inspection Jean, think you have a point to consider.

 

These are Eisho Bizen swords, for comparison. Always say look at the sword before the ana though, as sometimes they look obviously drilled and other times not.

 

The bottom link, even looking at those you may think at least one is drilled.

 

https://new.uniquejapan.com/a-bizen-1514-sukesada-wakizashi/

https://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-bishu-osafune-katsumitsu-saku/

 

 

 

[Alex A]

I n fact Don, can we have a full clear pic of the nakago (handle) of the sword?, cheers

[Jacques D.]

15 hours ago, Alex A said:

Jacques, looked at more machi-okuri waks (not being pedantic but around the one hand sword length which can be pretty long but lets just say waks)  over the years than i care to remember and funnily enough they have mostly been Bizen and all had 2 ana about an inch or so apart. 

 

Where have you got this "other tsuka" notion from?, its intriguing . So Tsuka readily fit other swords?, hmm

 

This is what i think. Fighting/blocking a blade with one hand on the blade was a complete nightmare, imagine it, big naginata coming down on you, your tired and your nakago only has room for one hand.

 

Holy****, what can we do about such an issue ?, we can slightly shorten the blade to enable us o get 2 hands on the grip, thats what we will do!!, that way, when we are knackered from fighting at least we can stop blows.

 

It may be a Katana, but still applying what ive seen, right or wrong, dont matter.

 

The nakago-jiri in the photo looked Bizen, rounded.

 

Why does everything need to be a competition with you?, why cant you just make a point?

 

Great scott!!!, your that sure about everything, sometimes i think you have created a god dam time travelling device with your love for physics

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Alex,

I've always wondered why it's those who know the least who talk the most? When you have the number of trips to Japan that I have made and the number of Bizen swords that I have held, you will come back to see me. Bizen nakago-jiri does'nt exist at least until the contrary is proven.

 

In the meantime I advise you to read this book from which I took the picture of a ubu sword but with a lot of mekugi-ana.

[Jacques D.]

 

 

http://sanmei.com/contents/media/O5453_S824_PUP_E.html

[Baba Yaga]

When you say Blade length is 27.5” long. Is that cutting, or total length? Looks really long in the not so good photos.

 

[Alex A]

Dear Jacques, 

 

You don't need to travel to Japan to get your head around Bizen, seen enough, owned enough, and seen enough online to have an opinion.

 

I dont give a flying feck what you think about me, or to be honest what anyone else thinks about me.

 

I give an opinion, other people give an opinion and that's it, there is no reward, just see it as trying to help folk out

 

You are so weak minded that you feel the need to pick at people and challenge opinions rather than just comment. Think you get an high from this but its becoming boring.

 

You often try and be clever putting other folk down and saying they have Dunning Kruger disorder, but to be honest the only person on here that i think has that condition is you, who the giant %%% do you think you are?. Only a muppet that puts the rest down could have such a condition, no one else does that.

 

You think your clever, put personally, i think your thick as feck. You have a one tracked mind that puts everything into suitable boxes that you can get your head around and cant think outside the box, you are a one tracked mind that can only spew up what is written in a book.

 

Personally, think your full of ****

 

 

 

[Don Wong]

From the Ha-Machi to the Kissaki tip is 27.5” long.

 

I will get a better image of the tang and measure tang length.

 

As well as take a better image of the Hada… I will try some suggested techniques for a better shot of the Hada…

I seek information that will help me decide what to do with this blade. 

This blade is slender and fast, balance is very fine, if not amazing.

 

I ask only next question to be sure the blade is not tired and over polished. 

 

Is it consistent with blades made from the suggested year made from 1510-1540, late Muromachi period?
 

Is the blade interesting enough to consider papering?

 

I am considering getting Shrira-saya for it. But if it’s worth it, getting it properly polished is not out of the question…

 

Thank you All,

 

 

 

 

[Alex A]

Hi Don, you would need to get the false signature professionally removed to attain pass papers.

 

Best thing do is speak with a polisher and get a real "in hand" evaluation, he will tell you if it is worth it or not.

 

Polishing blades is not cheap!

[Jacques D.]

Alex,

I have only one thing to say, people who come here to ask for information have the right to get something serious and not just ranting. When I don't know, I keep my mouth shut and I don't venture into wild theories.

To be honest, you can't tell anything about a sword if you don't have it in your hand. I'll make an exception for the signatures because they are clearly visible. People who pretend to read a hada or a hamon based on a few bad pictures of a sword out of polish will always make me laugh.

 

[Alex A]

Dear Jacques

 

You have a point on that one.

 

I certainly wont try and assist anyone like this again

 

Not worth the hassle or the unnecessary insults that go with it

 

Actually, people that come here for info get it FREE, so they shouldbe greatful of anything.

 

Over and out.

[Baba Yaga]

14 hours ago, Don Wong said:

From the Ha-Machi to the Kissaki tip is 27.5” long.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's really a long blade to be Muromachi, especially if it was shorten.  This is all best guess with many exceptions poor referenced information  

[Jussi Ekholm]

I will admit that I cannot see anything from the pictures. It could be different in person but I cannot see the details at all.

 

I believe old Gassan work in general tend to have varying amounts of visible ayasugi due to their "unique" style in making. There are some swords that exhibit very visible and almost total ayasugi, and some seem to have only slighter amount of it visible. I do think in the signature picture flash might make signature and nakago look fresher than they are in reality, as I see the patination in opening pictures being more genuine in look.

 

Here are 3 bit different style signed and papered Gassan katana to show the variation in appearance of ayasugi.

https://www.aoijapan.net/katana-gassan/

https://www.kusanaginosya.com/SHOP/232.html

https://www.nipponto.co.jp/swords2/KT218912.htm

 

[Franco D]

20 hours ago, Don Wong said:

Is the blade interesting enough to consider papering?

 

I am considering getting Shrira-saya for it. But if it’s worth it, getting it properly polished is not out of the question…

 

Comments, ramblings;

 

 At present the condition of the polish makes determining what this sword is difficult. Remember, it's the sword that confirms the mei and not the other way around. Which then raises the question of what are you hoping to accomplish by submitting this sword "as is" to shinsa? Mei verification? Perhaps establishing the time period more precisely? If gimei, then who or what school/tradition made it?  An experienced and knowledgeable collector will have a pretty good idea going in what the answers to these questions might be, and more importantly why or why not.

 

Shinsa surprises can sometimes be good, but can also be most disappointing.

 

Interesting?

 

How interesting could a muromachi period gimei sword be? It is not going to be an earlier copy of a later sword. It's not likely to be a saijo smith's copy of a chu jo saku smith's work. But, it could still be a decent sword. 

 

Interesting?

 

How can anyone know without seeing the details of the sword? It's workmanship, quality (chu saku, chu jo saku, jo saku, Jo Jo, Saijo) ? Is it hiding nie, nioi, ji-nie, utsuri, chikei, ayasugi hada, yubashiri, ... ? Unless and not until anyone including the shinsa team can see these things, it might not become such an interesting sword.  Which leads to the question of whether or not to have a window opened/polishing. 

 

Polishing.

 

Windows come at a fraction of the cost of a full polish. They allow one to see what the sword will look like polished. A window can reveal enough to make further decisions on what steps to take or not take next with the sword. 

 

Personally, unless a sword (especially of some length, katana), has a very good chance of receiving tokuho or a higher designation it is difficult to rationalize having a sword polished.  There are almost always exceptions. 

http://nihontocraft.com/2015_NBTHK_Nionto_Tosogu_Shinsa_Standards.html

 

Collecting nihonto is not easy, lot's of bumps and pot holes along the path, but then the challenges can make it rewarding, sometimes. 

[Jacques D.]

Dong Wong ,

 

Here a ko Gassan 

[Don Wong]

I will work on getting better images of the Hada and tang.

 

Thank you all much for so many things to consider…

[Paz]

The elitism that comes with this hobby. 

😆 

[Gakusee]

The blade subject to the original discussion is an honest, decent and genuine blade in acceptable polish. I am not sure what people are looking for in terms of polishing windows, etc. Everything is visible on the blade and in fact it is is in better shape than most blades found 'in the wild'. It can be appreciated as is. Often one needs to factor in not only the economic cost of a polish but also what can be gained in terms of [incremental] appreciation after the polish, and then all of that should be weighed against the removal of metal and diminishing the blade for posterity. Sometimes, it is just not to be done and the blade is best kept as it. 

[Don Wong]

Gakusee, thank you for the honest reply.
 

I have an opportunity to trade this blade for a newer blade, with papers. The person interested really liked the length and feel of the blade.

I just wanted to see what the general opinion was of this blade.

 

I really like the fact that this is an old blade, balance and feel is amazing. 
 

When holding the blade to a single source light, and running the light down it’s length, the lines and surface are perfect. The polished shape to me is stunning.

 

Thus the reason I have kept it for so long.
 

Yes, there are scratches and small black surface rust as you can see in the images.

 

But it is mine. Lol

 

I am working on getting better images of the hada and tang length…

 

Thank you All… 

[Matsunoki]

7 hours ago, Gakusee said:

Sometimes, it is just not to be done and the blade is best kept as it. 

Too true Michael! It’s a horrible possibility that a polish uncovers something really nasty and then there’s no going back. I believe the risk increases a lot with older blades although I recall a beautiful genuine Sukehiro wakizashi in one of the old London “famous collection” sales in a super shirasaya where the mint polish had hit a gruesome blister!……just shows even the best smiths got it wrong. All the best. Colin

[Don Wong]

Playing with some images, check this one out showing close up of Hada

 

 

[DoTanuki yokai]

Looks like image noise to me because it’s too dark. 

Get the strongest light source you have and make some more pictures in different angles. 

The autofocus won’t be able to focus a polished sword so you can place a piece of paper on the blade and focus this. 

 

Maybe this can also help you http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/appreciate.html

 

[Don Wong]

Here is a tang image, the tang measures 6 7/8”, I am getting better images of the Hada…

[DoTanuki yokai]

Your Hada picture is not as bad as I thought, I just had to zoom in :D

I would think the signature is ok even if I can’t see anything supporting it but also I can’t see something against it. 
Maybe I’m just too optimistic.

 

Somehow I missed most of the posts on side 1, maybe I went to page 2 after the few first comments. 
 

First yea I think Jacques D. is right with the Mekugiana but I don’t know if they are made on the battlefield. 
In my impression different occasions required different Koshirae and another Koshirae is reason enough to punch a hole.
 

Also there is no reason to shorten a blade for a longer grip, the Tsuka can just have more wood on the bottom.
 

 
 

Sorry the Tsuka is just in the background but I hope it is visible that the Nakago does not reach half way of the Tsuka length.

[Alex A]

Christian, you could very well put a longer Katana tsuka on a wakizashi short nakago Whether or not a samurai would want to depend on it in battle, i very much doubt. Without altering the nakago.

 

There has to be a balance with nakago length/tsuka

 

You only need to look at koshirae made for waks that are machi-okuri.

 

Not talking about the sword in this thread, just making a suggestion.

 

Ps, actually, looking at the nakago above. First thought, appears shortish for a blade of that length.

 

[Don Wong]

Here’s another shot, very difficult to get it just right. I’m also getting some of the other dimensions as well…

[Alex A]

Don, 

 

Your sword is interesting, the fact that it is one of those real oddballs that you come across occasionally.

 

You could spend all day on this looking through books and not come up with anything substantial. You should send it to Shinsa in the US and at least that way you will have opinions of experts who see it in hand. That is if you really want to know about who made it (opinion)

 

At first glance from your original images i immediately thought Bizen and i kind of still lean that way but sit on the fence so to speak. From a distance it just looked Bizen, the hamon, sugata and nakago.  The nakago of which i still thing is machi-okuri. File marks are indistinct which does not help, in some images there appears to be remnant yasurime which match that of Bizen but i cant call it from images.

 

As Kirill pointed out, the sugata is that of an early blade but the work don't match. 

 

The hada appears dense (in some images) and the hamon seems to have little activity for Sue-Bizen. From then on i started thinking something like Takada as they were known to have blades resemble Bizen but also have a dense hada. Its not that straight forward though as there are parts of this sword that dont point to Takada. The Nakago does, but they were known for stout blades where as yours seems slender, like an old tachi. Other differences also.

 

The nakago ana are obviously drilled. Dont normally look too much into this but no way of getting away from it. 

 

Kind of got to thinking maybe some kind of special order blade whereas a Samurai wants a particular request. When blades don't quite fit this can be an explanation. You do see oddball swords with papers sometimes that do make you wonder. Swords with odd sugata that dont match the age etc.

 

From then on looked at Shin Shinto Gassan which i know nothing about. From a brief read i noticed that some did make swords in the style of old tachi and worked in various ways regarding hamon and hada, though your sword appears much older without distinct yasurime etc etc etc.

 

Not really got anywhere but just some thoughts.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

[Don Wong]

Thank you..: