The wonderful world of where the hamon ends

[Alex A]

Don't know about anyone else, but this particular little subject crops up now and again and to be honest it drives me nuts.

 

Just to make a point

 

3 swords, the first 2 are papered to Sukenaga (late Edo) at 2 different times in his career

 

The first, obvious where that ends.

 

The second, if there was 2 ana then you could be forgiven for thinking this sword is machi-okuri

 

The bottom sword is gimei Sukenaga, it was actually made by one of his pupils named Nagatsugu. Just thrown this in as a bit of crazy fun to show what's out there.

 

If anyone comes across any other schools where you see differences in Ubu swords, throw them in !

 

 

 

[Gakusee]

Alex, if I am not mistaken, you are trying to demonstrate that even if the hamon continues (or appears to continue) into the nakago, the sword might still (appear to) be ubu? 
The third one has a very pronounced change of direction and shape of the gunome, as though the smith was indeed putting a “full stop” or a separator …

[Rivkin]

Where the hamon stops can be smith dependent.

Also, even on suriage swords polishers often drastically narrow down the hadori, so it can appear as if the hamon "intends to stop".

[Alex A]

Hi Michael, yes.

 

Observing conversations on here from time to time i get the impression that some folk assume that the work of a particular smith is the same throughout a career with regards where an hamon ends.

 

The two swords above show that it is not the case and its just one example, both are ubu.

 

Now this might sound trivial, but in fact its very important, well for me anyways. 

 

The bottom sword, well, that is from the same school and i just threw that in. I cant remember seeing anything quite like it for that school so may have to look into more of that smiths work.

 

 

 

[Alex A]

Few more Sukenaga, both paperd katana

[Alex A]

One more, from a different smith, Hizen Tadakuni !st.

 

See one as an abrupt end the other runs on. 

[Matsunoki]

Evening Alex. This may be a dumb thing to say but, could it be that in the lower of the two Tadakuni we are looking at a  nakago that has had a minor machi-okuri (maybe to remove a chipped ha machi - an inch or so) but has remained ubu and using the original mekugi ana? The yasurimei stop way short of the machi in comparison to the one above and somehow as a result the mekugi looks too far down the nakago. That would account for the apparent hamon continuation. Does that make any sense at all? 
To my mind there are several things that can confuse us (well, maybe just me!) re where hamon ends….machi okuri, Hadori polish, requenching , photography techniques etc. I sometimes wonder if we can believe what we think we can see.

Best.  Colin

[Alex A]

Hi Colin, 

 

Just looked at the Tadakuni and when i zoom in, the right pic of nakago shows yasurime higher up, perhaps worn the other side.

 

Spent 5 mins on the internet just pulling up various old sales pages and that's the result.

 

The point is (whilst trying think whilst misses watching strictly come dancing lol) wish folk would not be so closed minded when it comes to working out hamon with regards being ubu or suriage.

 

Loads of variation out there.

 

No getting away from the fact that there is hamon on the nakago. Heard of polishers repairing missing hamon with their tricks but dont see any point to it in that particular part of the blade. When they do that though, its obvious.

 

Remember Tsuruta San once telling me that hamon can be improved but you cant put a real hamon where there is none.

 

Your right about images, but you see that in-hand too.

 

Anyone could sit here all day and pull up varying hamon endings for a particular smith and that is my point.

[Jacques D.]

Hummm...

 

https://www.samuraimuseum.jp/shop/product/4143/

[Alex A]

Glad someone's chimes in, thought this would have been an interesting subject. Saying that though, i cant think of any subject that has caused more disagreements in the entire time I've been here. Thought lets gets to the bottom of it, or try.

 

As said, didn't spend a great deal of time, focused on looking for similar examples of nakago and where the hamon ends., not so much the blade.

 

Actually. i thought they were 2 good examples of very similar nakago

 

Nakago-jiri the same, unaltered

One mekugi-ana (the distance from the ana to the machi looks about right for an ubu blade)

Both have carved Mon in the same place., as in they meet the shiny part of the blade where the habaki sits.

 

Let me know your thoughts Jacques, maybe i missed something. if you think this is a bad example i can search for more when i have time.

 

 

 

 

[Jacques D.]

Just to say that the hamon starts at the level of the hamachi as on the great majority of the blades from this swordsmith. Once again, one should not rely on photos. 

 

 

[Alex A]

Think with this smith the hamon strays into the nakago on some blades, sometimes less and sometimes more.

 

This one dont stray far but whoever drew the oshigata picked up on it

[Matsunoki]

Can I just ask another question please? 
At what stage in the creation of the blade are the machi actually finalised? Before or after quenching? - because that could certainly affect the hamon termination point if done afterwards.

Also the hamachi is (I believe) just about the weakest part of the blade apart from kissaki tip so if damaged in quench a small Machi okuri would be needed..again possibly affecting the termination.

 

[Alex A]

Hi Colin, hamachi is there before quenching, pic from a vid

[Alex A]

Cant remember where i read about blade strength in that area with regards hamon running into the nakago. Read somewhere, that the reason you see hamon running into the nakago is to prevent a weakness where swords may break. Certain smiths/schools where you may find it. Something to do with the hard edge on impact, flex, and where the hamon joins the nakago.

 

They knew the weak spots, they only had to look at broken swords after a battle.

 

Looked, cant find it, hopefully someone might remember.

 

[Alex A]

Actually have found it. It was part of a private discussion i had with Darcy (god bless him) , had to go way back.

 

He said you may see it as some smiths wanted to avoid a place on the nakago where a brake can begin, a fulcrum point.

 

He mentioned smiths even being wary where they chisel mei, heard that one elsewhere too.

 

Also, Hi running the full length of the blade and nakago, possibly meant to prevent that too.

[Alex A]

We see many perfectly good longer swords cut down to wakizashi, owned one myself and often wondered about it.

 

Not got a time machine but one can justifiably speculate that it received damage at the nakago end.

 

Think i can recall the sword swingers on here stating the area around the hamachi/habaki takes a great amount of pressure on a blow against an object, this comes from flex on the blade meeting the force pushing down on the held tsuka/nakago.

 

My assumption is that it not uncommon for swords to receive hagire at that point.

 

 

[Alex A]

Wont bore anyone much more on this subject, something i needed to look into as its niggled for a while.  Had some time today so been looking through Kantei books, actually quite interesting looking at different oshigata with regards the hamon at hamachi.

 

Trying to get my head around it for once and looking for any points of view from others

 

Final thoughts, don't automatically assume a blade has been shortened when you see the hamon run into the nakago, sometimes it can run surprisingly far.

 

You see it in Uda.

 

You see it in Bizen, also in the late Edo with regards Yokoyama school, especially when there is Suguha Yakidashi. (varies)

 

Added some images. 

 

1) Bizen Sukesada (Tensho)

 

2) Ishido Koretsugu

 

3) Ishido Korekazu (wild finish there, reminds me of the Yokoyama above)

 

4) Echizen Yasatsugu (quite popular on his blades, the ones i looked at)

 

5) Echigo Kunitomo

 

Thanks to those that chipped in on what is a lacklustre subject, haha

 

[Alex A]

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