Mei samples and opinions sought

[Ford Hallam]

Most of you will read this mei fairly easily so I won't bother saying what it reads. For those of you who can't read it I would like to suggest that it would actually make a good exercise.

You will find all the kanji you need here.

 

For the rest of you clever clogs here's the subject of my investigation, it's of a kinko tsuba btw.

 

 

 

The first mei is the one I'm assessing. The other 2 are genuine mei taken from the Toso Kinko Meishu Roku. I have a few other, particularly of the format I'm looking for but they are not very clear images. If anyone else could supply more reference mei to compare these with I'd be most appreciative and I'd welcome any comments too.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Ford

[Markus]

Hi Ford,

 

Here are some additional pics from the "Shinsen Kinkô-meikan".

I dont want to lean too far out of the window, but I think there is the possibility

that your (the very left) mei is a gimei (wow, how politely expressed;) ).

My assumptions base on the character for "katsu", because it is too "straight",

whereas the moon radical to the left of the shôshin mei is always a bit slanted.

And also (力) radical to the very bottom right of the right radical (劵) seems too

big.

Well, just speculations so far...

[Nobody]

I found one here.

http://www.mfa.org/zoom.asp?file=SC1104 ... nd%20tiger

[Curran]

Ford,

 

Thank you for posting an interesting exercise.

 

Comparing the 3 mei you listed before even finishing reading your post, I singled out the first one as 'most unlike the others'. Still, I see variations within the genuine mei examples. As non-Japanese with only a limited amount of reading/writing experience, there is always that margin of error in my mind where something can be 'genuine' but not a lay down match with the reference mei. Especially when an artisan had a long life and an evolving signature.

 

Looking over the references that Markus posted (hat off to Markus), it puts the first mei as the outlier of the bunch. I looked at it in a different order than Markus as my eyes jumped first to the direction of a stroke in the second character in the name and also what I would call an extra stroke in the kao as the signer tried to change direction in a way I don't think is seen in any of the other reference mei.

 

Any chance this might be the second generation?

______________________________________________________

 

Regardless of the mei, I look forward to seeing this tsuba design- if you will share. So many fellow collectors focus on iron or early kinko, yet I greatly enjoy some of the late kinko art pieces.

[Ford Hallam]

thanks Gents, for the input and samples so far

Curran,

I will certainly be happy to reveal all very soon. I just need to take some really clear images first. What I must also add is that this piece is signed ura so is quite possibly a commission piece. I have looked at the work of both the first son, who signed Katsuhiro and used a different kao, as well as the adopted son who used the same kanji as his master. The workmanship however, on this examples is as good as it gets...and the actual composition is clearly the work of a talented and original artist.

 

I've hinted elsewhere on NMB regarding a special project in the works...but will write up a full "press release" on my blog in a day or two. Suffice to say, this is part of it and probably the biggest challenge of my career.

[Brian]

All this exercise really shows me is how little we really know and how unqualified we are to judge mei :lol:

Just take a look at the kao alone on all the examples. In the first 4 examples, comparing strokes you have 4 different ways of doing it. Any one of those alone would be called gimei by us compared to the others.

The one you show has some remarkable stroke similarities and tiny matchings with parts of the other mei that make me think it is not unlikely that it is shoshin, but take that from a novice anyways.

However we always say to judge the work, and that would have to be the deciding factor here. Over the life of the artist (and even day to day) the mei has to change. Just choosing one kanji here demnstrates that.

I think a large part of this is also judging how fluidly, confidently and evently the mei is done. In this case, that really can't be faulted. You also have to remember how small mei on tosogu really are compared to on a nakago. This is a significant factor I think.

So my overall opinion...no idea :lol:

But if the workmanship says it is..then good chance it is.

 

Brian

[Brian]

For anyone who wants to compare, I have put all of them in one pic for ease of viewing.

 

Brian

[docliss]

Like all of you, I am desperate to see Ford’s photographs of the tsuba itself. My only observations regarding the mei is that in all of them, with the exception of Ford’s and possibly of one other, the upwards stroke of the final loop in the kao appears to end at, or very near to, the angle formed between the longitudinal and vertical strokes. In Ford’s it fails to do so, and this makes me suspicious of his mei.

 

Regards, John L.

[Curran]

Dear Ford, Markus, Brian, Dr. L, and Nobody-san,

 

There was a point in life a few years ago when work was easier and I had the opportunity to spend a period helping with the cataloging of an old collection. It was fairly large with many kinko, and had many gimei pieces in it. I think that period was a significant leap forward for me in experience with tosogu.

 

In that collection were two pieces that bedeviled me. They had complex signatures that were close to the books but I ultimately felt were 'not right'. The workmanship on these two was fantastic. One of them truly pained me to call 'gimei'. I was offered the chance to buy it at a very fair price and did not because I was not confident enough in myself to appreciate it for the skill regardless of whether or not it would NBTHK / NTHK paper.

 

Many years later, it still bugs me that I didn't buy it.

 

That has happened 5 times now for me: 4 where kinko tsubas, and 1 was iron- all from the 1830-1880 period where the smith had a relatively long life. Three of the five have gone on to paper or be deemed authentic. The other two: I have no idea who owns them now. I'm going to always wonder about that one tsuba and I hope to see it in the possession of another collector some day.

 

I have my doubts about the signature on Ford's, but when these late kinko with a nice signature come up....I've been wrong on these 'near misses' to error on the side of caution more than I have been right.

 

...just a journeyman and not a native Japanese reader. *sigh*

Brian hit it on the head talking about how "fluidly, confidently" the mei is done. I look forward to the day that I get a better handle on that aspect of a slightly irregular signature on an exceptional workmanship.

[Ford Hallam]

great input and commentary, thanks again all

 

I'm sure no-one on the board will be surprised to read that I did indeed have a "hidden agenda" with my request for mei to compare. The thing that strikes me about this sort of exercise is how reliant we actually are on a very poor base line of certified examples.

 

The artist in question, Hagia Katsuhira lived from 18o4 until 1886. In 1844, at the age of 40, he was made an official artist for the Bakufu by the Daimyo of Mito. From this we can confidently assume he was at that stage an accomplished and established artist. What I'm getting at is that he held this elevated status for 42 years. It is inconceivable that his mei remained exactly the same throughout this period.

 

Of the examples shown so far ( I hope for many more) we can clearly see 4 that are obviously from the same period, being as they are, remarkably similar. I would also point out the variations in actual compositions of the others and what is actually recorded.

 

I've alluded previously to the fact that this study of ours is still very much in it's infancy, in the West, as well as in Japan. Perhaps we're in a similar situation that connoisseurs of renaissance paintings were in 150 years ago . In any case, I think there is a very real need to apply the sort of rigour to assessing mei on kinko work as there has been on blades. In short, we simply need more examples and from the whole range of an artist's career. As things stand it's often comes down to a game of "spot the difference". Having said that, I am also aware that professional Shinsa appraisals in Japan have hugely broader range of reference material at their disposal... it would be helpful though, if we could access more of it :D .

 

Finally, it is a fairly well recognised trait of artists, in all mediums, to alter the actual rendering of their mei and kao ( in particular) over the course of their careers and these variations have subsequently become a means of dating works. The most thoroughly documented case I know of, among kinko artists, is in fact Kano Natsuo. In his case this is helped by detailed workshop records of the works.

 

The calligraphy of Yamaoka Tesshu is another good example of such variations indicating the probable date of the work, this despite many very convincing forgeries.

[Jean]

Don't know anything about mei but take the mei Ford is wondering about : the third kanji starting from the top (the middle one if we count the Kao) the left part of the kanji has two horizontal strokes月. In all other provided mei the lowest one is going upward fstarting from the left .

[Rich T]

Hi all, well this is fun isn't it

 

I like Ford's line in that

 

It is inconceivable that his mei remained exactly the same throughout this period.

 

This is something I have believed for many artists for a long time. Age, change of rank (as in, I used to work in the corner shop, now I am in the Lord's keep), mood etc must have plaid a huge role in how artists signed, just as we make our way through life with our personal signatures.

 

I have added some examples of these mei form Wakayama's Toso Kodogu Meijei Taikan. I have grapped as many different styles of signature as I could and there are some intersting variations here as seen in this first image including cursive, straight up and down and a more free flowing example.

 

 

In this second pic, I have hightlied 4 areas that I was drawn to when I started reading this thread. All significantly different from the mei presented from Ford, and the Text book examples supplied in the original replies. However, the examples from TKMT showed me that there is more to this signature than first thought.

 

 

1: The square (I think Ha section) of Hagira is very "boxy" in Ford's example but I found similar samples in TKMT

 

2: The bottom if the Katsu in nearly every example is small and tight, the test example is long and open. Again though, I was able to find at lease one mei similar

 

3: On Hira, the small right side stroke is short whilst the textbook examples appear to be longer, again, I found a similarity

in the book on a couple of occasions.

 

4: In every case, the top of the Kao on the right side is short and upturned, where as Ford's example is long and bends down at the end.

 

Until I found this.

 

 

What I found here, and I have found many times in the past, is that any one may, with enough Shoshin examples, make a mei out of the individual characters of a group of other mei (I hope that made sense). Never hang your hat on just a few examples.

 

Ford has, I think hinted somewhere in an earlier post, that this is Soshin, and I concur (Oh I do like to stick my neck out but it's happy on the chopping block LOL). I think this mei looks well struck and correct for a talented hand, and has enough similarities to the supplied text book examples for me to say I think it is ok. I am ready to be shot down in flames of course at any time.

 

Cheers

 

Rich

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Jean,

 

the stroke you refer to does in fact follow exactly the same line as all the other examples...honestly :? ..I'll try and show that more clearly in the next images I show.

 

To push my point about the scarcity of comparisons I would suggest that the Boston museum example ought to be rejected due to the fact that the vertical stroke on the last kanji on the right makes that very abrupt turn to the left.

 

Further, of the 4 I mentioned , that look so similar, it's clear that there are discrepancies in the spacing of the horizontal lower stroke on the last kanji on the right....which one is right?

In addition to that the top stroke on the kao is relatively straight in the middle one ( in the images below) whereas the other 2 are clearly curved. there are other discrepancies but there's no need to be that pedantic...I think I've made my point, and these are obviously all examples from the same period.

 

 

I'm still working on this thorny issue so I hope you'll all bear with me and help by adding what you can to the melting pot cum analysis

[Ford Hallam]

Cheers Rich,

 

your input is most welcome...the 7th cavalry you might say . Your examples illustrate precisely what I've been trying to show.

 

regards,

 

Ford

[Brian]

Excellent analysis Rich! Thanks for that

 

Brian

[Rich T]

well it's all gone a bit quiet on this, are you going to let us in on the scoop soon Ford ?????

 

Rich

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Rich,

 

sorry about that...it's all been a bit hectic here and the weather has been fouls os getting some decent images done is proving tricky ( I prefer to use natural light )

 

I'll try and sort it today and write up a blog entry to explain what's a'foot

[Ludolf Richter]

Hi,here are some additional pics.Ludolf

[Amon]

I have too say that the Koi on the picture one is absolute stunning,

and it's hole envoriment

[Eric H]

From the BAUR-Collection

 

Eric

[Curran]

Ford,

 

Time to share a photo?

C'mon. Lest we die from the boredom in our own lives.

[Ford Hallam]

Sorry about the delay...there has been a lot to organise in the last 2 weeks but it's all coming together now. You'll find some images and details of what I'm up to on my blog, here.

 

There has been some suggestion in the past that the tsuba in question was made by the son. I can find no real evidence for this apart for an unqualified entry in "Tsuba, an aesthetic study" that claims works in the West bearing this mei are inevitably by the son. It isn't clear whether the suggestion was that they were deliberate fakes ( no Kao is shown or mentioned and they are very different anyway) or whether they are merely misidentified.

 

I've compiled a gallery of images from NBTHK journals of Hagia Katsuhira's work as well as his son and adopted son ( who was the better of the two and this was possibly why he was adopted). What is clear though, and I've found some good examples of similar tsuba ie, pierced and carved tigers and bamboo, is that this present piece is in an altogether different class in terms of design and sensitivity of technique. I'll be doing a detailed and comparative aesthetic analysis of some of these pieces as I work though this project that has just got under way. I'm hoping this may help pave the way towards a more considered reappraisal of kinko work in general.

 

regards,

Ford

[Curran]

Dear Ford,

 

Forgive my confusion:

--I read your blog entry. Do you have a full photo of the signed side of the tsuba?

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Curran,

 

there's a full image of the mei at the start of this thread.

[Curran]

Dear Ford,

 

Right. To clarify, is there a photo of the full face of the side signed with the mei?

 

The photos on your blog gave me some confusion as to the bamboo part of the design relative to the signature and the rendering of the backside of the "cat (out of the bag)" and its claws. Just curiosity. I've either seen this tsuba once before or its twin a while back. Unfortunately I didn't save a picture to file.

 

Basically I've stuffed up my Haynes Index with reference images of signed examples from artists. Given that I don't have an image for this artisan, the tsuba I saw before probably wasn't signed. Not sure about that. If you have a full image with signature, intention is to print out small image of front and back and place it in my Haynes Index.

Not exactly the best note system, but works for me.

[Brian]

Delayed reply due to new job pressures, but Ford, just wanted to say that this sounds like an absolutely stunning project.

Taking us along with it via the video is also very exciting. I look forward to a decent dvd production on tosogu for once, and I am sure you will find great interest from the members here once it is produced.

Good luck with the tsuba making, you didn't pick an easy one there :lol:

 

Brian

[Ford Hallam]

Thanks Brian,

 

just to clarify what happening, seems my long rambling blog entry is a bit confusing.

 

We've got the wakizashi tsuba with the tiger, The dai tsuba is now missing. last seen in a 1964 Exhibition catalogue. We have the b/w photo from that. I will be recreating the missing tsuba and the whole process is being filmed in high definition. The end product will be a commercially produced DVD of the whole journey. This film is being made for the specialist audience...you lot :D

 

There will be a more general interest documentary made also. This is intended for public broadcast and will be presented initially at a couple of documentary film festivals. There is also a strong likelihood that the Japanese Agency for Cultural Affairs may back a version, in Japanese, for Japanese television. I was a 2 time recipient of study grants from this agency so my work since is a small return for the investment they made in me. We'll have more than 20 hours of footage by the time we're finish filming so there's a lot we can do with the material.

[Eric H]

While browsing in my old catalogs ...

 

Christie's New York, 17 December 1992

 

The Tsuba was sold for $ 6'600

 

Eric