WW2 Japanese sword Marking

[BANGBANGSAN]

17 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

@Swords - how about a shot of that ‘&’ stamp too!  Looks like we have 2 of them now.

Bruce

Here you go.

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Well, @IJASWORDS, there's a potential Shop logo to find in your book! - "&"

 

Feeling 90% sure this is a shop stamp, as it is on the seppa/tsuba, this adds to the evidence that shops stamped blade nakago, with logo at least, as well as used painted numbers.  The most famous is the Suya Shoten operation.   But, I feel stongly (75%) that the stamped numbers on nakago are almost always done by the Army (Navy evidence is too scarce to say), so the numbers on this blade COULD be done by the Army, while the added "&" behind the number simply means the fittings shop used the Army number, plus logo, as the assembly number in their shop.  But that's just my current theory.

[AlphaRaider]

Has anyone here spotted this "stamp" on a sword?  I have only seen it on one other person's sword and when I contacted that person they were unaware of what it ment as well.  I've tried mutiple groups and pages and for weeks not one person has been able to provide information sadly.

 

I've attached a picture to add to this discussion.  Thanks everyone.

[Bruce Pennington]

Hello Jonathan, and welcome!  I'm down in Colorado Springs, and would love to see that sword personally some day.  Life is crazy-busy for the near future, but when it settles down, I'd love to get up there to meet you and see the sword.

 

Can you post pics of the full rig and closeups of various parts like the tsuka, tsuba, and a couple of blade shots including the tip?

 

I have 3 others like this on file.  No one has been able to translate the mark.  That, combined with the late-war style fittings, point toward an island-made sword for the local forces teamed up with the Japanese, or for the Japanese themselves.  Many thousand troops were essentially stranded with no reinforcements and no re-supply until the end of the war.  There were some local smithing being done in some of the occupied lands, Java being the most famous, and these swords could be from one of those places.

 

Of course they also could be from a Chinese fake operation, but in this case, I don't think they are.

 

Here's one from @Stegel

 

and from @Yoshimichi

 

[AlphaRaider]

Thanks for the response.  I'd love to let you check it out I'd be willing to meet halfway if that helps too. 

 

[AlphaRaider]

Here are a few more pictures. Ive been on the road for 11 days and get back in town in a few hours. I have a studio at my house so I'll be able to get some nice images taken today vs with a cell phone.  Hope you have a great day.

[Bruce Pennington]

Wow!  Did you buy this from Richar Fuller?!  Same maker for sure.  I didn't post the kabutogane of Yoshimichi's, but they are the same

 

The fuchi and leather cover snaps are also the same. 

 

Interesting that all 3 have different tsuba.

[AlphaRaider]

Edit: delete

[AlphaRaider]

That sure is cool to see something similar to mine in such detail. This is what I've been able to find in the past 2 weeks of searching.

I bought it from an older gentleman aprox 2 weeks ago in Reno, he had mutiple other swords. We do a lot of out of state and instate shows so I've been hunting for swords and found this beauty.  It needs some love but it really spoke to me and I had to bring it home.

 

- Suguha Hammon on the blade.
- Japanese Air Soldier Guntō Tsuba. 
- Leather Saya combat wrap [ removable  ]
- White Rayskin
- Brass or Copper cherry blossom menuki (I believe)
- Correct wrapping style, (possible field repair based on material thickness)
- Stamp on the tang but not a common arsenal stap ( not sure )
 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Ok, I see now the seller was simply referencing Fuller's discussion of swords made in the field and by collaborating forces.

[AlphaRaider]

I dont believe it to be the gentleman that wrote the book.  But rather a mention to the page like you stated. I bought the book specifically to read on the subject. 

 

Here are a few of the saya, It seems old for sure.

 

-Jonathan

[MarcoUdin]

My honest opinion, not Japanese made and made postwar. Looks pretty close to those java swords. Especially since the nakago appears to be unfinished, Japanese would almost never.

 

Also there is no such thing as 'Japanese air soldier gunto tsuba', they would've used the same tsuba as every other gunto. Sounds like a load of dealer talk, much like the tag on that sword. If you had some proof aside from dealers, most people disregard that portion of Fuller&Gregory as being outdated and incorrect.

 

just my 2¢

[MarcoUdin]

Just realized that was the same sword on a Facebook group, just wanted to mention both Chris Bowen and Ray Singer said it's not Japanese. I know you said you didn't trust the Facebook group, but those two are probably the most credible members in the Nihon-to comunity, and SBG forums definitely doesn't have more to offer than them. Not trying to argue, but no point in trying to call the experts opinions uneducated.

[AlphaRaider]

I spoke to them privately, 

 

I'm sure they are both wonderful gentleman. I have nothing against the two of them and wish them the best in everything they do. This sword appears to not be of their focus and that's ok.

 

They were intersted in what an appraiser might say and that is still the route I'll be going.

 

Authentic Japanese sword or not I like it for the history aspect, and I find it neat.  It's finding the background information that I'm after.

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

These kind of swords are always controversial. The problem is that there is no documentation to verify their source. Another problem is that the lower quality workmanship of the occupied lands is so similar to the workmanship of Chinese fakes that it is almost impossible to tell them apart.

 

We do know for a fact that swords were made in occupied lands. And I think there are some telltale signs one can go by. For example, the alternating direction of the wrapping, and the quality of the metal fittings. Both are typical Japanese and not normally found on fakes.

 

I believe many of our top experts on nihonto have very little experience studying World War II gunto  and almost no experience studying late war and occupied land swords.  It is just not their area of expertise.

[Kiipu]

18 hours ago, AlphaRaider said:

Has anyone here spotted this "stamp" on a sword?

 

Yes, several other swords exist with that stamp.  To date, the identification of the character used is unknown.  Below is a link to one of the swords mentioned by Bruce above.

Help Requested Identifying Sword Stamp

 

Another one with a more complete character can be seen below.

Help with translation

 

Attention: @BANGBANGSAN

[AlphaRaider]

6 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

Yes, several other swords exist with that stamp.  To date, the identification of the character used is unknown.  Below is a link to one of the swords mentioned by Bruce above.

Help Requested Identifying Sword Stamp

 

Another one with a more complete character can be seen below.

Help with translation

 

Attention: @BANGBANGSAN

 

Thanks for posting a link to each of thouse. I've read through the pages and the links contained inside.  Sadly it doesn't offer up an exact explanation for the marking as per the maker or its location of forging.

 

It could be script in Chinese in reference to Buddhist markings. One of which would translate into "Hell" or "" per posts here. 

 

It does make a timeline of when these swords begun showing up on this website. 

[BANGBANGSAN]

8 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

Yes, several other swords exist with that stamp.  To date, the identification of the character used is unknown.  Below is a link to one of the swords mentioned by Bruce above.

Help Requested Identifying Sword Stamp

 

Another one with a more complete character can be seen below.

Help with translation

 

Attention: @BANGBANGSAN

Still not sure what is that mark means.Could be like AlphaRaider said ,some kind of Buddhist character ,like 恒(永恒 Eternal，恒心 Perseverance) or 悟(领悟 Comprehend) or  Korean character  알（ 알다 Understand)?

 

[Bruce Pennington]

An update.  For anyone filing/tracking these, it turns out Jonathan's sword is the same sword posted earlier by @Yoshimichi.  Don't know why the tsuba was swapped for another, but the nakago, and saya marks are identical.

 

Edit: Disregard the mention of tsuba.  I had mind-melded the sword from Stegel into this, which has a different tsuba.  I checked my files and don't have a shot of the Yoshimichi tsuba.  It's likely the same one.

[AlphaRaider]

I have contacted @Yoshimichi and am awaiting his response. These swords are identical.  I have a lady that does Japanese and Koren transcripting visiting the images as well to see if she may find anything.

 

We will get this figured out together I have high hopes.

 

[AlphaRaider]

The lady I spoke with believe it's neither a budist or Korean txt. She believes it is Japanese but was unsure of where it was from. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

The Tsuba look to be the same?

[AlphaRaider]

1 hour ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

The Tsuba look to be the same?

It could be, it's difficult to see that part. Everything else is for sure the same sword.

[BANGBANGSAN]

Here is one that has very similar Kabutogane&Tsuba, but without Menuki.

[Bruce Pennington]

9 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

The Tsuba look to be the same?

Sorry guys, see my edit above.  I don't have a shot of the Yoshimichi tsuba, and it's likely the same one, no swap was done.

[AlphaRaider]

4 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

Here is one that has very similar Kabutogane&Tsuba, but without Menuki.

 That handle wrap color is cool.  I took some pictures with my Nikon Z7 and a Sigma Art 24-105 F4.  Should have some decent ones to post. Good image of the tang stamp. 

[ChrisW]

Well, these swords do tend to circulate in the same circles, so it doesn't surprise me that it popped up again in another's hands.

[Bruce Pennington]

On 9/29/2022 at 3:58 AM, BANGBANGSAN said:

similar Kabutogane&Tsuba

I could be wrong, but this one looks like a fake imitation of the real one.  Note the differences in the kabutogane in style and quality.  Also, the wrap on this one is folded in one direction which is typical for Chinese fakes, and the material/color looks new.

 

 

The fact that a faker would imitate the original means the original was legit WWII stuff.  Fakers don't copy other fakes.

[AlphaRaider]

Both sides of mine in better detail.

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

6 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I could be wrong, but this one looks like a fake imitation of the real one.  Note the differences in the kabutogane in style and quality.  Also, the wrap on this one is folded in one direction which is typical for Chinese fakes, and the material/color looks new.

 

The fact that a faker would imitate the original means the original was legit WWII stuff.  Fakers don't copy other fakes.

Tang don't look Chinese fake.