WW2 Japanese sword Marking

[Swords]

Any one know what the w tang marking on is for

 

[francois2605]

Bruce wrote a great document about stamps found on WW2 swords that you can find here: 

 

Look in page 28

[Swords]

Thanks Francois good document by Bruce 

the W as I referred to was one of 3 different stamped 

1 star tagahamane added 

2 w ?

3 X rejected 

 

can anyone elaborate on the w stamp

[MarcoUdin]

There is no definitive answer to what the 'W' stamp signifies.

[DTM72]

 

[Swords]

I’m thinking accepted stamp But is it for Arsenal or Gendaito ?

[Bruce Pennington]

The W or M is a midway inspection mark. It seems to be tied to the Tokyo First Arsenal. And if there is a star on that blade, could I get photos of both sides of the nakago, please?

[Swords]

I don’t see any marking 

[Swords]

Dose the w significant arsenal or Gendaito is the w 

here’s additional pictures 

[Kiipu]

It is an officer variant of the Type 95.  The Type 95 was highly thought of by the army for its cutting ability.  So a prototype was developed and tested that could be used by officers.  I think @Shamsy could own one of the test pieces used in the sword's development.

Short Development History of Type 95 Gunto, Post #212

造兵刀　Army Arsenal Blade

@BANGBANGSAN

 

[robinalexander]

Steve here is a ''W' stamp from the tang of one of my mid 95's....the only 95 I have ever removed the tsuka from. FY interest.

 

Rob

[Bruce Pennington]

Wow Steve, you've got a pretty rare sword there!  I agree, it appears to be one of the blades made by the Type 95 team for an officer.

@Stegel needs to see this too.

 

PS: @Brian - this should be moved to the Military thread.

[Swords]

Hi Bruce what makes it so rare You can tell all this by the w or by the blade 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Looks like a normal Zohei-To......

[Bruce Pennington]

Well.  After reviewing several nakago of Type 95s and Zoheito, I'd have to lean toward John's zoheito idea too.  While the blades and blade tips are almost identical, the T95 nakago are longer, narrower, and lack a fully discernable yakote.  This one has the same shape and look of other zoheito nakago I have on file.

 

Steve, if this were an officer sword made with a Type 95 NCO blade, it would be a rare one to have in hand, as actual ones are very rare to come by.  If it's a zoheito, then it's not all that rare.  Less common than standard Type 94/98 gunto, but there are plenty of them around the collecting world.

 

Zoheito were an attempt to mass produce blades for officers during the sword shortage years after switching from the western styled kyugunto over to the samurai styled Japanese swords.  Single piece of steel, not made the traditional way.  The look and feel is almost identical to the Type 95 blade.

 

On a side note: Do any of our zoheito experts know if the factories churning out zoheito were completely separate from the Type 95 ones?  Seems to me the only difference is the shape of the nakago.  Could they have been from the same specs, or from the same factories? 

[Swords]

So it’s not rare after all ? Probably machine made like the NCO type 95 swords 

Any new information would be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks for your help wouldn't have known about this sword 

 

[Kiipu]

As I linked to above, the wartime zōhei-tō 造兵刀 came about via the Type 95.  Mass production began in earnest in 1943 and more zōhei-tō were made late in the war than Type 95s.  The Japanese army needed officer's swords and they needed lots of them.  Hence the development of the zōhei-tō.  It took the best features of the Type 95 and ported it over to the requirements of an officer's sword.

[Swords]

I added additional information if that helps

[BANGBANGSAN]

Like Thomas and John said ,It should be a normal 造兵刀， nothing too special, these swords showed up all the time.

@Bruce Pennington

Major Bitō's (Nagoya Army Arsenal Seki Part Factory manager) account of recollection is as follows.
 "The shape and the size applied to the forging sword correspondingly in general. A blade uses army sword steel
 (C1.0%-1.1%).
 Fire structure one-piece-no-forging fabrication was carried out. And curvature was attached and a tempering in oil
 (840 degree Centigrade) and tempering were returned (530 degrees). According to the forging sword, it polished
 good.
 Although it does not break for a tempering in oil, there is no tempered line(Hamon). Sword material is also army sword steel and cannot hold a decisive difference with Type 95 only by this explanation other than a polish.

[BANGBANGSAN]

22 hours ago, Swords said:

Thanks Francois good document by Bruce 

the W as I referred to was one of 3 different stamped 

1 star tagahamane added 

2 w ?

3 X rejected 

 

can anyone elaborate on the w stamp

1.Star-(Army supplied) Material Inspection Stamp

2.M-Interim Inspection Stamp

3.X Failed Stamp

 

[Swords]

 The chart you  posted Where I got the 3 stamps from

Bruce already pointed out the w inspection is midway

my guess halfway through the inspection 

 

[Swords]

all in all you believe it’s zoheito not that rare

Great information from everyone thanks 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

19 hours ago, Swords said:

I added additional information if that helps

 

I learned something today too, thanks Thomas and Trystan!

 

Steve,

I don't see a stamped number on the nakago.  If so, can you show a photo of it?  Or is the "K797" just stamped on the fittings?

[Swords]

Both the tang and all parts of the tsuba are stamped with a matching number: K797

The parts of the tsuba also have an ampersand ‘ &’ stamped on them. 

[Bruce Pennington]

I track and file numbered blades, could you post a photo of that number on the nakago, please?

[Bruce Pennington]

22 hours ago, Kiipu said:

As I linked to above, the wartime zōhei-tō 造兵刀 came about via the Type 95.  Mass production began in earnest in 1943 and more zōhei-tō were made late in the war than Type 95s.  The Japanese army needed officer's swords and they needed lots of them.  Hence the development of the zōhei-tō.  It took the best features of the Type 95 and ported it over to the requirements of an officer's sword.

 

A noobie question - Murata-to began in the late 1800's.  Did they simply not take off in production?  Were the zoheito derived from Murata's blade ideas or are the 2 completely unrelated to each other?

[BANGBANGSAN]

2 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

 

A noobie question - Murata-to began in the late 1800's.  Did they simply not take off in production?  Were the zoheito derived from Murata's blade ideas or are the 2 completely unrelated to each other?

村田刀&造兵刀 are two different things.

http://ohmura-study.net/911.html   Maruta to

 

造兵廠刀 (軍人会館呼称) 
 一般俗称は「造兵刀」。九一式下士用刀 (昭和6～7年) が始まりで、この内、将校に販売されたものを指す。
 後の九五式刀身も包含する。「造兵廠で作られた刀身」という意味の通称である。便宜上この市販品を前期造兵刀としておく。
 「陸軍刀剣鋼 (C1.0%-1.1%) を使用し、圧延ロール及び機械ハンマー等により鍛造成型。
 寸法、重量は、官給下士官用制式造兵刀より稍軽量で細身。
 油焼入したものを乾燥研磨による機械仕上げをした。刃文無し」 (尾藤少佐回想記より) 。
 原型は三十二年式下士官刀。本来下士官刀だが、将校用刀身の不足、鍛錬刀の非生産性を補う為、満州～上海事変が勃発した
 昭和6～7年頃から将校に販売された

[PNSSHOGUN]

It is my understanding that Zohei-To were made using a version of the Murata-To process.

[BANGBANGSAN]

2 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

 

I learned something today too, thanks Thomas and Trystan!

 

Steve,

I don't see a stamped number on the nakago.  If so, can you show a photo of it?  Or is the "K797" just stamped on the fittings?

Bruce

Another 造兵刀 with number K781 on the Tang , Seppa.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

@Swords - how about a shot of that ‘&’ stamp too!  Looks like we have 2 of them now.