Cast or hand made?

[Yamato collector]

Wondering if anyone can give me an opinion on whether this tsuba is cast or hand made:

[GRC]

At first glance, it looked like hand done to me, but when you look closer, it looks like a two part casting that was cleaned up pretty well when finished, then likely hand chiseled to get the carved leaf veins on the surface.

Why it is looks cast:

1- definitely made from "two halves", with clear seams visible nearly everywhere (red arrows)

2- the giant void at the seam area in the nakago-ana (green arrow)

3- areas on the seppa-dai that have unusual pitting craters (but these can also be caused by corrosion)

4- areas on the tsuba's surface that have raised blobby, bubble-like lumps that rise above the rest of the surface and also "distort" what's around it (red circles). This is especially a red flag when the rest of the tsuba's surface is finished smoothly like this one, so the blobs are obviously not intended to part of the original design.

5- I think I can see a midline ridge along the outside of the mimi... but that's not crystal clear in the photo. If I didn't see the midline seams inside the sukashi areas, I might have thought these lines on the outside of the mimi might have been evidence of layered steel and "iron bones".

 

sorry

 

 

 

[Spartancrest]

I think Glen has nailed it. 

The cavity can be explained thus:

"Cold shuts are caused by premature solidification of the melt during casting, e.g. caused by insufficient casting or mold temperatures or insufficient casting height or casting rate.
Cold shuts preferably occur at level surfaces with relatively large thicknesses. The result may be separation of coherent material so that holes, unfilled areas, as well as rounded edges and overlaps remain."

https://www.giessereilexikon.com/en/foundry-lexicon/Encyclopedia/show/cold-shuts-3854/

 

Being an avid fan of "Forged in Fire" as well, I know that Cold shuts can also occur when forge welding is done without 'clean' metal surfaces but there is generally no large void as in this case.

 

[Yamato collector]

Thanks Glen, I had a feeling that it's cast. And no need to say sorry, because haven't bought it!

Appreciate how you adjusted the image to make it easier to see the seam. Will definitely be doing that in the future.

So how much would such a tsuba sell for as a cast piece?

Ron

 

[GRC]

Thanks for the corroboration and supplying the "cold shut" info Dale 

 

Ron, price is a tougher one...

From a collector's standpoint... "no value".

 

From a "useable piece on an iaito practice sword" point of view: this sure beats a more modern copy. From a distance, when mounted, this will likely pass as a legit period piece from a school like Akasaka or possibly even Higo. So it's worth as much as you're willing to pay for a "stand in" for a genuine hand forged piece. So I'd compare it in price to some of the newly made pieces coming out of China and wouldn't pay too much more than that. But at least this one looks like it's got some age to it. 

 

If you're looking for an inexpensive, "token display piece" that won't break the bank, then maybe $30-$50?

The only problem is, if someone else is bidding against you at auction, they might not realize this one is cast, so they'll drive up the price thinking it's worth a lot more 

Some older cast ones that have a lot of 3D "carving" can go for up to $250... but I suspect one of two things: either the high bidders didn't know what they were bidding on, or they just wanted something with that particular "look" and were willing to pay for it, regardless of how it was made. 

 

But really, if you're going to spend any money at all on a tsuba, I suggest you have a look in the "for sale section" of the forum right now, and buy one of the legit hand forged ones up for offer by Steve Waszack at the moment. He's selling some good stuff at great prices on behalf of a buddy 

 

That's my 2 cents ... um, pardon the pun? 

[GRC]

Ok hang on, just spotted this one online and saw another angle to this tsuba... which changes things.

Now I'm thinking this is more likely a THREE layered, folded steel tsuba that was very badly forge welded such that at least one seam shows up in most places and two seams show up all along one side of the nakago-ana. 

 

And now that I can see the original pics in the listing, what I thought were "raised areas" described in point #4, are not raised, they are sunken.

There are also some cracks in the plate at various points. You can actually see one at the top of the seppa-dai in this picture (below). 

 

That void on the other side of the nakago-ana (shown in earlier pics) is still a problem though...  it is probably the result of a chunk of that middle layer of steel that broke away and fell out when the nakago-ana got chiseled in. The potential for "breakage" makes sense in light of the cracks in other parts of the plate. 

 

I'd strongly advise you (and everyone else) to stay away from this one... the bid value is already too high for what this is.

This one should have been discarded at the time of manufacture. Frankly, I'm surprised it still exists. 

 

Here's one of the other cracked areas shown in red:

 

 

Well that was a fun puzzle to work through... Thanks Ron  

 

 

[roger dundas]

Good day gentlemen- I still find this issue about which tsuba is fully handcrafted and which instead has been initially cast and then hand finished ( tidied up ), a difficult one to easily identify and maybe I am not alone?. Dale (Spartancrest) and Glen (GRC) seem to have an eye for it.

The lost wax method is used for casting gold and silver where a wax 'model' was carved, suspended in the clay like slurry investment, melted out of the now hardened clay and then the molten silver or gold was  poured into the cavity remaining- often (mostly?) using centrifugal force to aid the process. I think that is how the process went. 

What did the craftsmen do with this iron tsuba casting? Not a wax original but an iron, hand worked original master I presume and then used probably multiple times ? Or a clay or wooden 'master'. And are those beautifully crafted, somewhat delicate in their design Shoami tsuba entirely handmade - I would personally think so.

I know this topic has been gone into a few times but has it all been completely resolved and have I been too thick to get it ?

I am always pleased to see Dale and Glen's sharp eyed opinions.

Roger j

[Matsunoki]

Interesting thread….got me thinking. Please educate me …….if it was cast wouldn’t it shatter when hammered to resize the nakago ana or insert the copper spacers (sorry…can’t remember the correct name)? This one has been well hammered and I thought cast iron shattered very easily. Thanks in advance. Apologies if it’s a dumb question.

[Spartancrest]

Colin, the only 'dumb' question is, one that is never asked. - [Quote from Confucius or me? ]

There has been a long running thread on cast guards and within it there is some information on how the Japanese were able to 'soften' their cast iron works by a process of annealing. This allowed fast production of metal work [including tsuba] and allowed fine details to be carved into the softened metal as a secondary treatment. It also allowed the tightening of the guard to the blade by means of Tagane-ato [punch marks] around the nakago-ana. [personally I would still be nervous doing this] The spacers you mentioned are 'sekigane'. Glen and Dan De Rooy and others have amassed a great deal of evidence based information in this thread.  

 

[Matsunoki]

Dale…..many thanks indeed. I learn something new every day. Trouble is I can’t remember what it was🙂.
Many moons ago I had a collection of Namban tsuba….mostly intricate dragon designs….and was amazed at what detail was achieved. Back then in the UK they were regarded as one step up from rubbish but I liked them. Thanks again. All the best. Colin.

[Ford Hallam]

From my perspective I see absolutely nothing in this tsuba to suggest that it isn't a perfectly genuine  Edo period (possibly early to mid Edo) tsuba made from hand wrought iron.

The 'seams' are commonplace in hand wrought low carbon iron, as anyone who's processed tatatra produced type material can attest.

 

There are lots of other more subtle textural effect in evidence in the iron that all evidence it being hand processed material and hand worked. 

 

Additionally, the tsuba appears to be an early-ish Akasaka piece. One characteristic of the first three or four generations of this school is precisely a three layered or sandwich construction. Supposedly the outer plates are more refined with the core less well worked. A bit like the kobuse style of sword construction.

 

I think this is a very attractive and desirable example, the design is text book, and the workmanship essentially spot on. The overall condition is very good, it's a classic earlier Akasaka tsuba that would be a decent addition to any Akasaka collection.

[Brian]

Really glad you said that Ford, I was wondering the same but didn't feel qualified to comment that. Bravo.

[roger dundas]

Great to see a comment from a man who has very successfully made tsuba.

My remark is just to indicate how fortunate this NMB is to have knowledgeable people  in this genre putting forward their opinions.

Roger j

[GRC]

There was beautiful chisel work done to achieve the design, which is very attractive, yes.

In that aspect, this shows some excellent craftsmanship.

 

However, a clean forge weld with tatara steel was readily achievable. So having giant gaps like this is just poor blacksmithing.

 

So in my view, the chiseler gets a "gold star", while the blacksmith gets a "fail".

 

But hey, to each their own. 

This one would be a hard pass for me, but someone else might love it as an example of an early-ish Akasaka piece.  

 

[Ford Hallam]

Glen,

 

I don't know that judging this particular style or school of work on the finesse of the blacksmithing is really all that meaningful.

 

Clearly what some might see as poor forge-welding technique was of little concern to the early Akasaka masters or impacted on their popularity, those masters who are most revered by connoisseurs. This obviously visible method of construction, along with the weld openings, is in fact a kantei point for early Akasaka work.

 

We might speculate why is apparent 'flaw' was accepted, fuel cost resulting in a very minimal amount of material preparation, I've made plate by consolidating tatara iron in just two folds myself. It sticks like s**t to a blanket!, a few more folds and it'd be good for a blade but the bare minimum seems perfectly adequate for tsuba of a particular aesthetic.

 

In fact we might imagine further that the basic humbleness of the basic plate was appreciated precisely because it showed so readily it's lack of pretension. These are all well recognised and respectable aesthetic expressions in Japanese art.

 

Japanese potters made perfectly refined tea bowl and cups yet it is the rough and irregular Kizaemon tea bowl, probably made as part of a batch of dozens or more by an anonymous Korean potter in a matter of minutes , that is revered as the Holy Grail of tea bowls in Japan. 

 

 I suppose this all brings us back to a fundamental point of art appreciation and critique, that is that is ought to be considered in its own historical and social context to be fair or meaningful. Of course anyone is free to like or dislike whatever they choose, as you say; "to each their own", but I would suggest that to 'properly see' something made so long ago and far away we need to try and put aside our very different, modern, world views and tastes and to understand why it is as it is and what it conveys in its own terms.

[GRC]

An interesting viewpoint Ford.

 

Just for the sake of comparison, here are some good quality, visible forged layers, from the second master Tadamasa (particularly around the hitsu-ana on the left side of this image, the seppa-dai is too out of focus):

Image from "tsubakansho".

 

Personally, I would think their more likely intent was to achieve this kind of finish, rather than produce a plate with huge gaps between the layers.

But that's just me looking at it from a blacksmithing perspective.

 

I think, to have a clearer picture of "intent", it would have to boil down to the evidence of numbers...

If the majority of early Akasaka plates show tight seams and layers, then that was likely their intent, and the ones with gaps were just "errors".

If the majority have large gaps between the layers, then it would be more plausible to accept that as evidence of "intentionality" (or perhaps some form of "limitation" in their local steel layering ability), and that "tight seams" were then "accidental".

Neither would be absolute proof of course, but the conclusion would certainly hold a more solid footing. 

 

Following that train of thought,

the tsuba posted at the top of this thread is the first early Akasaka tsuba that I have seen with such large separations.

It actually felt a bit "shocking" to see something like that.

Granted, I have not seen copious numbers to compare, but "tight layers" has just been my experience so far.

 

If anyone has some images of other early Akasaka tsuba plate layers, I'd love to see more examples to gain a better grasp of what's out there. 

 

 

[GRC]

Godai Tadatoki (5th gen) example: three clear layers, no separation

(from legacyswords.com)

[MauroP]

Some more examples from four Akasaka tsuba (all with NBTHK paper). In some pieces the separation between layers is even much more evident than in the tsuba wich originated this thread.

 

[GRC]

Fair enough, thanks Mauro 

Definitely more common than I expected then...

That bottom left one must have been heavily corroded at some point to end up like that though... looks like it'll fall apart at any second  

[sabiji]

I just saw this thread. The seppa-dai is typical of Akasaka, the tagane are typical of Akasaka, the hitsu-ana fit the earlier rather than the later pieces. Cracks or small imperfections are actually quite common due to the construction. Tsuruta-san has just a Ko Akasaka with TH a lot of money, which is also missing a small spot on the inner ring of the decoration. No drama at all with such pieces.