Quality or Quantity?

[shan]

Hello again,

This is a new item and as you are probably all aware i cannot judge quality of these things.

I think it is very well done and is large at 62mm and maybe good quality.

Could you offer some views on what you think of it and perhaps fi i am lucky attribute it to a style or school.

Also is that a war fan and dragon with halbard?

thanks

shan

 

[Guest nickn]

may we see the back

[shan]

here you go.Hope it helps

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello, hmm, I'm not passing judgement on this set, but whenever circular tabs appear on the back of menuki the first thing that comes to mind is the word "cast".

[Ted Tenold]

Doesn't look repro to me. The central post around the square tabs has been removed. The two outer "mounds" once housed pins (or rivet stems) which were likely used for attaching this into a tobacco pouch ornament, or perhaps to a broach or other jewelry which was the fate of many kodogu during the meiji era. Whatever conversion it may have been, it was once one of a pair of menuki and the center post could have been removed to augment the conversion, or been ripped out before being mounted onto a tsuka.

 

The quality looks average to me. Not crappy, but not exquisite.

[nagamaki - Franco]

hello, my earlier look was a bit hurried, now I see the two round bases connected to what were posts and agree with Ted's summation.

[Brian]

Shan

Looks slightly above average quality to me, but as Ted said, not masterpiece. Quite nice though, but since it is just a single piece it is irrellevant anyways. Single menuki are .......

It was a menuki, then made into an ornament...probably for the pouch that you said it came with. Tobacco pouch ornaments (forget the name now) were common.

 

Brian

[Rich T]

by the title of this thread Shan, the question should be answered as such.

 

Stop buying this stuff (= less quantity) and start buying good stuff (= more quality)

 

I hope that answers your question.

 

Rich

[b.hennick]

Well said Rich! It is easy to buy stuff - only requires some money. Buying good stuff requires money and knowledge. The greater the knowledge the better the purchase. One can find great things at many price points. If you are wealthy, you might be lucky or make bigger mistakes without the knowledge. So big bucks are not the guarantee to quality. Study and perhaps guidance is what is needed. I have helped and continue to help less experienced collectors buy swords. I too ask for help or at least opinion before a major purchase.

My last sword purchase was made after consulting a more experienced collector. His opinion and explanation of what I was seeing helped me to decide to buy the blade. This message board seems to me to continue to offer both knowledge and advice. Unfortunately some do not take the advice. I thank those who give freely of their time and express their opinion often to be rebuffed for saying what is obvious to many of us. I personally tend to follow the dictum "If you have nothing good to say, then keep quiet."

Back to lurk mode for now...

[shan]

Hi Rich this Menuki was bought to go with another very similar one of a Tachi and Kobuto.

I think it will go well.IMHO

Barry,

I don’t disagree with anything that you have said and perish the thought that you perhaps thought i might.

I am as always very gratful for the help in understanding that we all get from most people in the posts.

It is important to sometimes question a reply to better understand how it was decided.

I am always grateful for replies because they sometimes can sent thoughts down new directions.(and a healthy debate never heart anyone)

None of us are infallible and we all get it wrong from time to time.(me a lot but then i like what i collect and i am happy at my level)

Its a cringe able thing to be told your item that you thought was nice is not so good but then, as i said before, i always buy what i like anyway.

I agree that life would be easier for the people who do offer Kantei and translation on this forum, if we did not bother to ask in the first place because we all knew what we had(because the "papers" tell us exactly what it is) But to be frank..Wheres the fun in that?

You yourself have said that you bought a sword based on what another had told you about it and pointed out.

I have papered swords and i barely look at them because there is nothing new to learn from them, they are.... what they are.

This is sadly my level of collecting, to have a sword that is in need of a desperate polish and restoration and to see what emerges from the wreckage like a butterfly from its chrysalis is exactly what i love about swords, to me every sword is worth preservation.

I understand that people continue to suggest Books Books and more books but this is only showing me the failings in the items i am likely to come across everyday at a budget i am comfortable with.I have many books and they are directed at top end stuff.

Yes i would love to find a blade that turned out to be by a master, hats also part of the fun.

I think you will find that a great many of us sit in this middle ground of collecting.

Without the experts to help us we would have no forum and equally without the questions raised by novices.......

Regards

Shan

[Soshin]

In answer to your original question. I would say it really depends on what the persons collecting style is and his or her personality. I tend to collect things that I find pleasing to look at as very refined Japanese folk art. I generally classify Nihonto and tosogu as very refined folk art. This style of collecting of mine can run a board range of quality from papered works to antique fakes (i.e. gimei) but I am never disappointed with my purchase. I enjoy researching each item if it is papered or not and try to learn as much as I can not just about style of craftsmanship and time period but also try to understand some of the Japanese classical culture that goes into the design of the art depicted in the Nihonto or tosogu. Take care and enjoy collecting and researching. :D

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

I have papered swords and i barely look at them because there is nothing new to learn from them, they are.... what they are.

 

I'm wondering what you can learn from the other stuffs you own. Maybe you will be more happy collecting pins or camenbert boxes.

[Jean]

In fact, the question is always the same, what are we collecting and why. I have heard that people on the Board have bought more than 50 to 100 swords (and believe me, I am not exagerating, I know one of them), some began their collection 30/40 years ago. Owning for owning, buying for buying, some used there swords to upgrade their collection in getting a good profit ... some keep them in bulk, unpolished, rusted. I had at most ten blades, then I decided - years ago to sell eveything in order to get only 5 katanas representing more or less the gokkaden. Then I have changed my mind, I am selling all my swords but one which is Juyo level and with that money I shall buy a Juyo one and I shall stop. Two swords are enough. I shall keep nevertheless my Kanetomo tanto which is very good and has a splendid polish. I already sold my Tsunahiro hitatsura katana.

 

People are driven by different motives. I agree wholeheartidely which what has been said by Rich and Barry, whatever your wealth, by waiting you can get a lot of fine piece of arts even if tiny. Only the craft matter, not the mei (even if it is a plus). To educate yourself, you need to see hundreds of fine peice of arts, try to analyze them, then you won't have to ask to anyone, when you buy something is it good or not, you will know for sure. Barry, Curran, Rich, Giuseppe, Ford, Paul , Eric ...and a lot of seasonned collectors never asked : is it good or not.

 

Rule of thumb : 1st, be able to distinguish what is craftsmanship (good of course :D :D ), that is what collecting art is all about ...

[paulb]

I agree totally with Jean (a first for cross-channel co-operation??) and in recent months have gone down the same route although not quite so extremely. The most swords I have ever held in a collection was 24. I realised or had it pointed out to me that I only really looked at perhaps 4 or 5 with regularity and the others just to check they were ok. So I took the decision to reduce and improve (hopefully) and am part way through that process. It is probably the best thing I have done and I am delighted with the result.

I am nervous about making the next point as I have no desire to get in to a long debate and verbose correspondence about being right or wrong. This is not fact but a point of view.

Shan,

in your mail you intimate that collecting quality is linked to wealth. Therefore only those with loads of money can collect or more importantly study fine art be it swords fittings or anything else. I absolutely disagree with this. To learn and appreciate what is good and what is not is achieved through study and commitment and a lot of hard work. It is easier if you have great examples to hand but not impossible to do otherwise.

I have been collecting for 25+ years, seriously for perhaps half that. based on the number of pieces you post on the board I am very confident that my annual expenditure on swords fittings etc is well below yours. What I do spend a lot of money on is books, ( I know my book bill this year exceeds my sword expenditure and has cost a lot more than the budget that most new collectors set themselves for their first sword)

The point is that 25 years on I am still investing in as many good books as I can. This is because I need them as a substitute for the quality swords I cannot see.

Buying quality swords is not the exclusive right of the wealthy. If it was I couldn't do it.

Claiming to have no taste, understanding and not being able to identify what is good or bad is neither a badge of honour nor justification for spending money on poor pieces. It is misguided.

As Rich, Jean and others have said. buy fewer pieces, be prepared to pay more for them rather than hoping that every cheap piece of metal is a treasure waiting to be discovered and spend more time reading and studying.

End of early morning rant

regards

Paul

[Justin]

Shan,

 

I'm not sure if you've been to Japan before, but if you get a chance then make sure you drop in to one of the reputable dealers in Tokyo (such as Choshuya Ginza, Sokendo or Japan Sword) and have a good look at their swords and fittings. Tell them your a new(ish) collector and they'll be more than happy to show you what quality items look like. I agree 100% with Paul - you can't have enough books - however you must also see what quality items look like by holding them in your hand and examining every possible detail. If you do this regularly, then you will be able to see the difference between crap, average and quality items much more easily.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

This is sadly my level of collecting, to have a sword that is in need of a desperate polish and restoration and to see what emerges from the wreckage like a butterfly from its chrysalis is exactly what i love about swords, to me every sword is worth preservation.

 

Even if I can understand and in some way (or till to a certain level) agree with the very last statement, what people is trying to say you is to develop the knowledge and taste thru direct experience. This way you'll not forced to ask on every single piece for an overall judgement, but only once in a while, possibly on a specific detail you're not sure to have got correctly.

This is not related to your collecting level.

Collecting and studying are two entirely different diseases that may or may not be found together in sword lovers.

 

You can study without collecting, but You definitively shouldn't collect without studying.

 

This doesn't mean you can't collect low-end stuffs. My opinion is that you're still young and with plenty of time to

build-up money for your hobby. Nonetheless, you should build-up your mind before.

 

this Menuki was bought to go with another very similar one of a Tachi and Kobuto.

I think it will go well.IMHO

 

And now to explain you what I meant hereabove...

 

Menuki should go in pair. You shouldn't match different items. If you got a single, high-quality very good one, still you should maintain it as a collectible, not to mount it on a sword. If you really can't resist, you should ask for a mirrored mold to be taken and a twin one reproduced but it's an easly detectable trick.

 

If you had seen some more, better if in hand, you would have realized this is a popular theme, mass-produced and not

so hard to find. Molds for cheap pairs have been popular from a certain period on. I myself have an almost identical set on a scarce mounting :

 

[Brian]

Shan,

A while ago, I suspended your account because, as I told you, you were posting too often, not listening to advice, and arguing with advice that was given. I told you I was not deleting your account because I felt you needed to step back, and read the forum a lot more and not post as often. Read, study, get together with collectors and learn the difference between mediocracy and good quality.

I recently un-suspended your account on your request so that you could ask one or 2 questions. However we are back where we started, after you said you would take it easy. Manic posting here we come...

I think your intentions are good. Otherwise I would have just deleted your account. However I am suspending it again. You need to step back, relax and read instead of posting so much. This is too much maintenance for me.

Please do continue to read the forum and learn. I feel in time you will have a clearer picture of where you stand with collecting and how to identify good from bad.

 

One thing need to be made perfectly clear. It is not all about money or owning only the best stuff. Trust me..I have far less money than 99% of the members here. I also don't own great items. In fact I own some mediocre stuff like you post, and enjoy it. However the difference is that I know it is mediocre stuff, and see it easily. I also know what I have that is good. Seeing good stuff let's you identify lesser stuff.

I am really not as against some ppl owning fair items. Sometimes they get enjoyment out of it. But then at least acknowledge what you have, be aware of it, and don't expect it to be a treasure. Sell it oneday and upgrade as has been mentioned. Sell 5 mediocre items and buy one good one.

Also note that mid to late Edo, "mediocre" items are not necessarily junk. No reason to regard them as that. They were used by Samurai and merchants daily. They are what they are, and nothing less or more.

The key is not to be embarassed to own fair items, it is to know they are fair. This comes from study and seeing the good stuff. You don't need to ask about most of it...it is obvious.

You are not in the middle of no-where or the bottom end of Africa. You have access to good collectors, societies and museums. No excuse.

 

Note that this advice is not only for Shan. It obviously applies to everyone. Sometimes it is a good thing to slow down and relax, and not treat this study as a race.

 

Brian