NCO WWII katana

[kissakai]

I'm trying to sell this for a friend. I looked around the NMB and the internet for some prices
I've no problem with members letting me know if it is priced to sell
I'm asking £1,200 ono

 

[robinalexander]

Grev 1200 GBP would be well above my budget for mid 95.

 

Unusual tsuba dont think its regulation. With retention strap hole as well?

 

Could we get some pics of the saya and throat ? (from what I can see  also looks a little alien to the sword)

 

Tks 

Rob 

[kissakai]

I'll ask the seller for a couple more images

 

[robinalexander]

Thanks Grev, 

 

Some confirmation would be good.

 

On a closer look the tsuka (nice paint!),  fuchi and blade look genuine however you would need to check number/inspection stamp on the blade.

 

The saya appears to be a 'ring in' thus the retention strap/tsuba hole...if this is correct, IMO you may have to lower your sights on the price .....significantly.

Rob

[kissakai]

Thanks Rob - I do know he has had it a long time and was untouched and neither the owner nor myself have dismantled it
Obviously, no idea of its previous history. What images should I ask him to supply?

I will re-think my price when more details are known

 

 

[robinalexander]

Grev, I would hazzard a guess and say that it is authentic WW2 combination. That view is based on the existence of the seppa/retention strap which looks period and it is broken which is also common for an original item. I just dont think someone would add that post war but who knows.

 

Hard to make any call on the WW2 authenticity of the saya itself apart from saying it is unlikely to be a 95 saya. 

 

So for pics I would ask for .......

1. clear pics of the entire saya with a couple of close up of top and bottom.

2. Pics of the number and inspection stamp on the blade, and finally

3. I would like to see a close up of the 'same' on the tsuka ..... just to make sure its the real McCoy. 

 

The tsuba guys on NMB may be able to make some sort of comment on the tsuba (rough possible age whether it may be an heirloom)

 

All that should put you in a better position to establish a price and have some confidence in wording of an advert.

 

Rob

 

 

[robinalexander]

Also forget to mention...no need to "dismantle" the tsuka from tang (unless you firmly believe its a fake).

 

There is nothing to see on the tang of a 95, the screws/sarute might suffer and it might not go back together as well as it is now.

 

Rob

[Bruce Pennington]

Dang.  What an interesting piece!  The dirt/grime, plus the broken leather retention strap look wartime legit to me.  Interested to see the saya too.  I would bet a months fun money that this NCO had an heirloom tsuba and re-fitted his 95 with the tsuba and saya to carry it into the war.  Love the sakura.  Unless the tsuba guys say it is a WWII piece of work.  Then I have no idea what transpired with this gunto.  So far, though, looks period done.

 

Price will depend on who's buying.  Some guys like the odd-ball unique items with history.  Someone looking for a mil-spec 95, likely won't even want to buy.

[kissakai]

I have no intention of removing the handle as we can guess exactly what it will look like

 

[JohnL]

I really like the tsuba too, though doesn't it seem unlikely that someone would have a family heirloom tsuba drilled for a retention strap? 

[Dave R]

7 hours ago, JohnL said:

I really like the tsuba too, though doesn't it seem unlikely that someone would have a family heirloom tsuba drilled for a retention strap? 

 

 Why do you call it a family heirloom, more likely bought from a second hand shop for the job! Even now you can pick up ordinary Edo tsuba cheap from Japan. Back in the 1930's-40's they would have been junk. Below, bought for £15 in 2015..... It might even have been one of those Showa retro jobs. I have even seen them on Shin Gunto drilled for the Chuso.

 

 

[robinalexander]

On 9/13/2022 at 10:22 PM, robinalexander said:

(rough possible age whether it may be an heirloom)

Sorry folks, I threw the word "heirloom' in there but only as a an 'cover-all' to suggest to Grev to simply establish its bona-fides before he offers it for sale.

 

I know as much about tsuba's as a hog does about sunday.

 

Didn't intend to imply it was ...... [what I referred to it as]

 

 

 

 

[JohnL]

7 hours ago, Dave R said:

 

 Why do you call it a family heirloom, more likely bought from a second hand shop for the job! Even now you can pick up ordinary Edo tsuba cheap from Japan. Back in the 1930's-40's they would have been junk. Below, bought for £15 in 2015..... It might even have been one of those Showa retro jobs. I have even seen them on Shin Gunto drilled for the Chuso.

 

 

 

Yes I think we are saying the same thing. Unlikely to have been a tsuba of huge value, sentimental or otherwise, but for all that it is quite attractive. 

[Baka Gaijin]

Good Morning Gentlemen,

 

I had this style of stamped Sakura tsuba years ago,  it was on a put together for either military or civilian support use, with an old lacquered  wooden Saya with kurikata with an added Haiken and leather combat cover and old tsuka pierced for a Tosho tassel.

 

I was told these Sakura tsuba were popular during the war and available in sword shops catering for the war effort.

[kissakai]

Hi

I should have a couple more images later

It was nice to hear the comments about the tsuba which all made sense and I need to get to a realistic selling price

 

I had some feedback from the seller:

The question about a retention strap seems odd, given the fact that it has a retention clip, as all NCO’s swords have.

I believe the saya is not correct “but it fits”. It is not easy to interchange blades and saya, so that in itself is questionable.

Perhaps the scabbard is an original one. I am sure the Japanese may have allowed a higher ranking NCO the privilege of having added fittings to a standard sword as Officers were allowed the same. That is an old sword with civilian handle and all civilian fittings but covered in a combat cover to stop the saya being scratched (in the jungle) but also to make it conspicuous as an army sword.

There is no doubt that this is a genuine WW2 Japanese NCO’s sword

 

[kissakai]

Just received this

 

It was like this when I originally bought it. You can see the wooden lacquered saya where the combat cover is split. It has been taped up at the opening and I am reluctant to remove the tape

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Grev,

Since it sounds like everything fits, I'd lean toward the "custom job during the war" theory.  Maybe his original saya was damaged, maybe he was one of those head-strong individualists.  They did, in fact, exist, even though that is hard to imagine in our limited view of WWII Japan.  Richard Fuller, in his book of admirals and generals, stated that many of them were head-strong, non-conformists (not the words he used, but don't recall his exactly). 

[robinalexander]

Grev, I can't help feeling it was put together out of practical necessity (for any number of reasons) rather than being custom but either way I agree with Bruce that it appears a WW2 period alteration.

 

I don't want to keep this going any longer than you are happy to, but my mind now turns to the question of restoration/conservation (not embellishment) and I would be very interested to see a few clear pics of the 'electrical taping' that has been done to the saya.  Also the split in the saya.  

 

Depending on the result, I (and others ?) may have some ideas and happy to talk about them here or PM your call on that.

Rob

[Dave R]

OK, going out on a limb here, we know from Mr Komiya's research, that in times of shortage commissioned officers were allowed to buy arsenal made NCO swords. If you were such, would you not want to make it look less like one from the box, and make it clear that it was an officers property!

" In the previous month, on 29th of July, Army officers were granted the right to purchase Type 95 swords for Yen 33 from the Tokyo or Kokura Arsenals."

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/sos-swords-out-stock-alert-783673/

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Wow Dave!  What a very interesting idea, and certainly a possibility!  Which, Grev, would makes this a more interesting piece for sale purposes.  I know, I know, there are sellers who hype all sorts of fanciful stories sometimes, but as a 'possible explanation, just theory' I wouldn't mind presenting the idea.

[kissakai]

After the interesting feedback (many thanks) the price is reduced to £750ono excluding shipping and PayPal costs

 

 

[kissakai]

How about £700?

 

[kissakai]

He is keen to sell to buy another item so £650!

 

[kissakai]

Final price drop to £600