What is this then?

[shan]

I have this Tsuba that i had not researched and one day last week i was browsing the net and saw a very similar one attributed to Akasaka sukashi Tadatoki 4th Generation.

Not knowing anything about this area of sword fittings, i also asked a few people by email what they thought of it and it came back as.

its a mantis and wheel theme that akasaka were known for in an abstract form.Most thought it without doubt Akasaka and many thought one of the middle Tadatoki smiths.

"Their workmanship shows a combination of Kyo-sukashi and Owari-sukashi first then adds a taste of the Hayashi school of Higo tsuba later.Their tsuba is relatively thick and then has round mimi (outer line) and a little large hitsu-ana also powerful ke-bori carving is done on it."

Some liked the item although one thought it rather "roughly made" and another thought it possibly a middle tadatoki work but when he was studying (not yet a master).

Some loved it.Felt it would paper to Akasaka no problem and it was a good Tsuba and later tadatoki 5th or 6th gen.

and recently one thought it modern Junk.

 

All opinions were "Not in hand" so i cannot quote anyone without permission.

 

I would love your opinions on this "good or bad" as the "jury is still out" on whether this is Nice or complete Junk.

I had some interest in it from several people, but wanted to "hold off "until i could be sure it was what i was selling it as.

The Photo colours are not consistent sorry,I have also gently cleaned some wax and stuff from it since these images were taken.

Many thanks

Shan

 

 

 

 

 

[paulb]

Shan,

without any pretence of expertise in this field I would make the following comments:

1. I like the design very much and it looks to have similarities to many Akasaka tsuba I have seen before on various websites and in hand.

2. I don't see any basis for considering it to be "modern junk"

3. The texture of the iron in the rim looks interesting and sort of what I would hope to see.

4. I am a little concerned with the flatness and colour of the inside surfaces if the design as they lack the rust I would expect to see and show no signs of layering which can occasionally be seen in Akasaka work.

 

Overall I think it is a good design and based on the main photos a good colour (is the silver on the photos around the nakago-ana reflection or bright metal?)

 

I sure those with a lot more experience in this field will enlighten both odf us.

regards

Paul

[Ford Hallam]

hmmm...I think I would have been even more convinced in my opinion had I been sent these much clearer images.

 

I never suggested junk but as far as I can tell this is plain mild steel and the work of an amateur. Not much older than 50 years.

 

I would like to point out that anyone can make a plain steel cut-out based on a picture in a book so I would suggest that any considerations based on the actual design are irrelevant if the steel itself doesn't support that attribution.

 

my email reply;

 

it's hard to make absolute statements on pieces like this especially based only on some images but for what it's worth these are my thoughts.

 

At first glance I would think of Akasaka. I assume you know the motif that this is based on....

 

 

 

the other possibility would be a Higo province copy but this seems unlikely to me due to the lack of character in the steel.

 

As you can see your version has been abstracted quite a lot. Now this is something the Akasaka school probably did ( this abstraction) better then any other group. Personally, I think they were quite influenced by fabric designers in the then cosmopolitan Edo, their sense of design is quite unlike any other school in this respect...but that's another essay

 

Having pointed out the abstraction I have to also say that in this case it seems as though the maker has lost sight of the original work and so has ended up with shapes that don't really fit together very well. If you imagine making a tracing of the original and then making a tracing of the tracing etc, etc , etc you end up with something that has lost its design integrity. This has clearly happened here.

 

In my experience this is less likely to happen when the maker is a professional...some of the piercings don't line up perfectly and some of the shapes are a bit awkward also. There are a couple of aspects, like the point that pokes into the space that would accommodate the kogai, that make me feel this maker didn't instinctively understand a tsuba's function and merely copied a shape. This is why I would suggest an amateur made this....probably sometime in the last 50 years.

 

The steel is very plain, from what I can see and although Akasaka work in the later periods is very tightly forged and refined steel there is always some texture to the plate...here it seems to lack any defining features at all.

 

not much more I could say...but I hope I've provided some food for thought at least.

[shan]

This is probably not going to make any difference but i will post an image i took in daylight with no flash.

for reference

shan

[reinhard]

I agree with Ford. This is Akasaka-style from a 20th century point of view. Features of early Akasaka masters (asymmetrical hitsu-ana and others) have been taken over the top. Neither design nor steel quality look good and seppa-dai is way out of proportion.

 

reinhard

[Ted Tenold]

I also agree the seppadai looks too small, and what stands out to my eye is that it also appears to be off center, looking somewhat wieghted to the bottom of the composition and warping the imagery. The color of the patina, though not bad looking, seems to lack the taste of time one would expect to see.

[Mike]

I am afraid I have to agree with the "Modern Akasaka style" tsuba opinion, you have got all the reasons for this opinion in Ford's letter and Reinhard and Ted posts. I have a modest collection of Akasaka tsuba and by far I am not an expert on this school, but out of your photos, this does not look like genuine Akasaka nor one of the masters work. Sorry. Mike

[Martin]

Features of early Akasaka masters (asymmetrical hitsu-ana and others) have been taken over the top. Neither design nor steel quality look good and seppa-dai is way out of proportion.

 

Hi all,

 

okay, I also don´t think this is an early Akasaka piece. But my first guess would have been later Akasaka work so I am curious what makes you think it is only 50 years old ....

Could you please elaborate on what you mean with poor steel quality and mis-proportion of Seppa-Dai?

I think it is hard to judge a piece through pictures only - even if they are quite good.

 

Shan, it would certainly be helpful to know the measures and thickness of the piece.

 

Best,

[shan]

Hi,Requested updates.

the dimensions are:

7.2mm at seppa dai

6.2mm at Mimi

73.5mm across the hitsu ana

75.5mm down the nakago ana.

I have also added these images taken in "natural" light.(although they still look different to the eye than the lens in some).

perhaps they help....perhaps they hinder.

First is a more natural look to the Tsuba and texture is better.

 

second is a better image of the rust in the sukashi.

 

Then there is the mimi

 

then lastly these strange images of Layers in the nakago ana

 

 

 

 

Thanks

shan

[reinhard]

Martin, the latest pictures should answer at least some of your questions.

 

reinhard

[Guest nickn]

reinhard

are you suggesting the tsuba is a cast one?

nick

[Rich T]

I think this is, based on the last images, a middle to late Tadatoki tsuba (1700's - 1800's) and not modern at all. I have to disagree with Ford and co. Shan, send it to the NBTHK and see what they say.

 

Prove all wrong (or right) LOL.

 

Rich

 

EDIT: looking back at the last lot of photo's, I am going to keep my dates, but might consider a Shoami copy of Akasaka.

[Ford Hallam]

reinhard

are you suggesting the tsuba is a cast one?

nick

 

I can't speak for Reinhard but those marks inside the nekago ana look suspiciously like an "as cast " surface. The copper sekigane looks bright as a new penny too....and as rough as a goats knee

 

On the basis of this new evidence I'd like to revise my initial opinion and suggest this is much newer than the 50 years I first thought. I now believe this to be a cast steel tsuba, possibly made from a mould taken from an original but the great thickness makes me think otherwise, cast metal shrinks so does the wax model generally used to make the mould so that would mean an even thicker starting point. It's probably no older than ebay.

 

 

 

night night,

 

Ford

[Ford Hallam]

Further research, a close comparison with the steel texture and colour of this example

 

as well as an apparently similar manufacturing process point towards this group. Here's a link.

[reinhard]

I agree with Ford. Thickness of the tsuba, its plain surface, sharp angles along the sukashi-ridges, lack of any kind of tekkotsu, brightly shining parts of seki-gane while others look artificially patinated, strange structures within the cross-sections of the bars/nakago-ana and other features make it look suspicious.

This tsuba was probably cast, but I'm no metallurgist. - It contains many features of the huge amount of modern sukashi-tsuba flooding the market recently. They look nice at first glance, but won't stand expertise. Maybe I'll be proven wrong.

 

reinhard

[Michael 101]

Must admit this one is a real puzzle. I have gone from no looks to new to yes its old and back to no its new several times with the addition of fresh pictures.

 

Style wise its based on a early pre 4th master, but that heavy edge to the kozuka ana is very off design. The layering visible inside the nakago ana is quite typical of the school. The sekigane looks to have been added very recently. But rust on the inner sukashi cuts seem quite convincing - I would struggle to think this is very recently made, although without actual inspection couldnt say for certain.

 

From pictures I would tend to agree that its a later made tsuba based on an early Akasaka school design - but how late is anyones guess from pictures.

 

Regards

Michael

[shan]

Thankyou gentlemen,

 

I note that other than Rich T who has a good idea of what i have already,

I would sugest Micheal and Martin (and Rich)that you have in fact said about this Tsuba almost exactly what all of the western (and i think eastern) worlds Sukashi and Akasaka specialists have said already prior to offering this for forum discussion.(True Ford you have always said you did not like it,thats a matter of artistic judgment based on his your own skill levels But none have ever considered it a modern made item.

The general consensus was based on images:

It is very likely Edo period Akasaka,It is most likely a school work or tadatoki works from when he was an advanced student,It is likely around the 5th-6th Generation Tadatoki (but may be a little later or earlier.).It is recommended its sent for NBTHK shinsa by almost all.

It is agreed that Its not particularily "well done" or set out well by artistic standards,Its not a balanced design and shows a lack of preparation as well as what we could percieve as a lack of skill.(or perhaps design?) It is not a masterworks all agree,Yet it is nice!

Perhaps.... It was considered good enough or the design was Intentionally a contrast between the mantis done in a relativly fine sukashi and the wheel done is a bold, strong design for submission as a new variation on an old style.(we may never know if this was frowned upon or praised but there is evidence of a masters assistance).

However it has missed the " Akasaka knackers/recycling bin" for a reason i would guess.

Cast tsuba:

It seems to me that if someone where to cast a tsuba,to decieve or otherwise,that they would not go to the effort of removing cast marks from the sukashi areas completely,but then leave the cast marks in the nakago ana.

What you have is where the punch has impacted the area,the layers had opened a little.there is a subtle crack running the entire length of the nakago ana to evidence this.The steel to the outer is hard,the inner is soft.

This is i have been told a well know trait of Akasaka and a Kantei point, along with the misaligned Hitsu ana and rounded and sometimes thick Mimi.

The loss of colouration/patina around the nagako ana is most likely from ill fitting mounts as this was a part of a sword and loosly mounted to the Tsuka.Not all tsuba have been sitting in boxes for the last 100 years or so,some have been mounted as in this case.

I concur,It is also quite possible that shinsa will "bounce" this (if in a bad mood)as one expert thinks that the Patina appearsto have been "touched up" in a few places but is not sure based on images.(hard to judge this one for sure)

All opinions may change.... but at the moment they are almost unanomously agreed that this is Genuine Edo period,but skill levels are down for mainline masterwork.

 

Regards

Shan

[Ford Hallam]

 

 

..perhaps someone could actually present some sort of evidence for this group delusion then...an example of a genuine work that bears some similarity to the piece under discussion might be a start. Citing anonymous Western and Eastern experts without providing any explanations for those opinions isn't convincing me at all, nor, I suspect, many others. I may be the loudest voice of dissent ( or reason) but I'm perfectly comfortable being proved wrong so I await enlightenment.

 

 

a middle to late Tadatoki tsuba (1700's - 1800's)

Rich T, you've placed this in a 100 year time span, that's at least 4 possible Akaska masters ....on what basis and characteristics do you make this call? Again, some actual images would help us all appreciate your reasoning.

 

Exciting...isn't it? :D

[Guido]

What I have learned this far:

 

* Educated opinions are no match for self-delusion.

 

** Temporary bans don't work.

 

*** Never date a girl with big hands.

[Bugyotsuji]

What I have learned this far:

 

* Educated opinions are no match for self-delusion.

 

** Temporary bans don't work.

 

*** Never date a girl with big hands.

 

This thread is quite educational. As to the tsuba itself, is it worth the cost of papering? Personally speaking, once burned twice shy. I tend to steer away from any tsuba that gives an iota of doubt.

This saves me from spending money. Well, that's the theory anyway! :lol:

 

What's wrong with big hands, Guido?

[Brian]

Maybe we should organize $5 donation from every member interested in the result, to pay for it to go for shinsa :lol:

I for one (not being a tsuba expert..or even a current pert) have seen enough doubt here to make me cautious about buying most tsuba online. Many are made without deceptive intentions, but what happens later to them is another story.

It also demonstrates how little you really can say for sure about iron and steel from online photos.

If you were thinking of selling or trading it, make sure you point the buyer here so he knows what he is getting himself into.

 

Brian

[Guido]

What's wrong with big hands, Guido?

They make a certain part of your anatomy look smaller than it actually is ...

[Amon]

 

The most funny this monday

[shan]

Brian,I am sorry....Ah well it was good while it lasted...

I had an instinct to Ask Ford not to contribute (no offence Ford) to this because i felt it may "colour" others opinions.Perhaps i should have contacted him after all.

Because i Know nothing of anything really and certainly not this one, Everything i have on it (information wise)was given by others as opinions (albeit learned, they are still just opinions,But because of the origins i trust them for what they are)

I removed it from sale based on 2 opinions...Fords and Mike Yamasaki.Both cast some doubt on this piece being the period i was told it May be and that was enough,(although Mike didn`t think it better that Akasaka school work and Possibly done by a Tadatoki prior to becoming artisan.Maybe Later than 6th gen school work i think he said.)

Primarily because i was selling it as potentially 3rd or 4th gen school work (as originally advised it MIGHT be) but when things did not come back as completely the same opinions from all contributors (close but not the same),I withdrew it from sale and advised the would be purchaser of this Posting and that fact that although he was keen i wouldn`t sell it until i was reasonably sure it would paper.(regardless of what people think of me, i do have scruples) There was no real issue with it getting shinsa to Akasaka something from the first 5 Specialists

There is no delusion here on my part,I do Not Know.

i am merely going on what has been said to me based on my Poor images.

I will not name-names as these experts have given a rough Kantei based on images and i said i would not use there findings (that would not be fair) to get them to Kantei it.. against there wishes really as no expert likes to kantei by images.

I cannot change your opinions Ford,You don`t like it one bit and thats the way it is sometime.

Your grounds for dislike are your own and i have no intention of trying to alter them.Right or wrong.

 

Brian...your right,there is no way anyone can reliably judge an item by images alone (this i have now discovered),The form?.... maybe and the level of skill for sure, but Patina and colour?....... not in a month of sundays.

This is why i won`t divulge my sources...because if they are wrong and i have "forced" them to Kantei a piece for my information...there credibility may be affected and that is not right in my Books.

So i will keep the statements from the Experts and specialists in a file with the tsuba and just leave it at that.

I have asked Mike Yamasaki or Cyrus chan to possibly find an image that gives an indication of what the akasaka layering looks like as i am only guessing, but if 2 different smiths have done it..for all i know it may look very different,Like one blade to another Blade.(i await a reply..If any)

I am sorry to have caused such bitter and somewhat caustic remarks from others,I was going entirely on what i was told,Nothing more really.

I have to bow to Fords wisdom though as he will be in a better position to judge a modern works than I or any of the other experts i would assume (although Mike makes akasaka as well).

 

If Guido, you wish to ban me again, then thats your prerogative as admin (shans got an opinion again..Quick ban Him)..But Delusional...not really just relying on learned opinions,(isn`t that also what this forum provides?) I wouldn`t give this tsuba anything and thought it complete Junk until advised otherwise.

I still don`t think its anything special and no one has said it is.

Just a period Akasaka piece from 5th or 6th Tadatoki period but school work.

Regards

shan

[Ford Hallam]

C'mon Shan...don't go acting all hurt now. This is not any kind of personal attack...just a healthy debate. As for delusional, well, perhaps in your case you are merely overly optimistic. I was actually getting at the "4th master attribution"...and still waiting for some sort of explanation in that respect.

 

I do think, though, that you are being very selective about who and and what you hear. Your suggestion that you had considered asking me not to comment publicly lest my opinion influence anyone else is quite shocking to me and suggests a willingness to ignore any input that is not what you want to hear.

 

I note you've tried to posit a conclusion at the end of your post;

Just a period Akasaka piece from 5th or 6th Tadatoki period but school work.

A bit presumptuous, don't you think? The matter is far from decided.

 

I have never claimed to be the "all knowing oracle" but whenever I do offer an opinion or try to clarify various technical matters I take the time and effort only because I want to help, and remember, you approached me. If you don't appreciate my input I'll take care in future not to say anything relating to your enquiries so that I won't accidentally burst any of your bubbles.

 

As for anyone else who has any doubts about whether a particular piece may be a fake etc please feel free to contact me either by pm, on my own forum or on this board. If I can save anyone from wasting money on crap it'll be a pleasure. :D

[Pete Klein]

Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeee's Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack!

 

 

 

and this time she isn't alone:

 

[Brian]

Pete, you clown!

We haven't forgotten you are a tsuba guy! So...Mr "nun's are just a bad habit"....what is your opinion on this one? You don't get away that easy.

 

I don't see why anyone gets upset at these debates. They are probably more educational than most discussions, and I really think that everyone should take the time to study items like this for the future. Realize that, fake or not...items like this can easily be turned out a few a day with modern technology...and we are going to see far more of these "undecideds" over the coming years. You need to study the metal and patina and "feel" of these tsuba in hand and not just on the net. In some ways, they are harder to study than swords.

 

Shan, given the varying opinions on this one, the last thing I would do is make a public "summary" of what it is. Only a shinsa can do that, even if you had 50 similar opinions. Saying it is something doesn't make it automatically that. I do hope we get to find out oneday what it is for definite. As Ford said, he (and I) would love to be proven wrong. This isn't a race or a game where someone wins.

 

Brian

[Pete Klein]

Yup -- dat clown be me! Brian -- I just knew you were going to throw down the gauntlet so for whatever it's worth here goes:

 

The first thing I noticed about this piece was it's size and design proportions. It's a biggish piece which isn't even remotely dainty. Why? Because it is for a big, heavy oversized sword. A tsuba must fall into line with the koshirae and therefore this piece to be in proportion must be placed on a larger koshirae. Now then when were these swords being produced? Bakamatsu to late Edo I believe. (let's leave Koto out here as this isn't being mounted on a masterpiece) Next, look at the interstices of the sukashi. The rust is old. You can see a mottled patina to it. However, it's not real old as it has little depth ergo later Edo. The sukashi are carved with sharp angles called 'kitate' and this is kantei to Akasaka as Higo would be more rounded. The metal has been rusted and cleaned (look for pitting and thin areas to the patina) and I feel the colour of the sekigane may be due to this unskilled cleaning, possibly from use of an acidic vehicle. The quality of the metal is uniform and dense with any surface irregularities due to oxidation, not forging. It is too clumsy in design to in any way be the work of a master and I feel it is probably one of the mish mosh produced later in the Edo Jidai where there was a confluence of school designs being produced at will by whomever. It may paper to kodai Akasaka but I have to wonder if the cost of the paper added to the original price would be greater than any sale price? Difficult to say.

My two yen.

[shan]

My last input on this one i think.

Ford i did ask you Via PM for your opinion and appreciated the feedback you gave Via PM.(now its you geting all sensative)

Its not for you and that i understand.Its not for me either.I understand its a poor piece.

When you said you didn`t like it and felt it a poor made thing that was fine..then you said no more than 50 years old..then its an ebay Knockoff..

I like your posts ford,i love your work and of that there is no doubt,you are talented and in some areas very knowledgable.

It was your artistic opinion i was after and that you gave.

Selective hearing would have allowed me to complete the sale to Mantis dude and taken his money,It was my selective hearing of you and Mike that made me stop the trade.

I am not selling it so don`t worry about that.

What i was trying to say in my "closing statment" was that it was nothing special and probably won`t warrent shinsa,hence its just a period school works.

Its badly done really,certainly not a masterworks or anything in the same room as a master.Not even the same house perhaps.

I am not offended persae,I just think an opinion was made and no matter what is shown to you, you will not change your mind...Layers are cast marks,rust has been inserted in the sukashi by the tiny little rust Gnome...or somesuch.

I understand the jury is out on this one and you may well be correct and it was made last year for sale on ebay.

I am sorry this caused such debate really.

But thats tosogu for you.

I will submit it to a UK expert if one does exist,I expect them to be very unimpressed as to why i have shown it to them,as i said to me this is ordinary,I just beleive its a genuine Edo item and probably Akasaka.

 

I am gratful for all opinions good or bad and have taken all "onboard" as reference points.

thanks

shan

[Ford Hallam]

I appreciate the conciliatory tone of your post Shan, even though you continue to misrepresent my view.

 

I have never said I didn't like the piece and neither is anything I've suggested been offered on the basis of my own aesthetic taste...that would be pointless. In fact I think it disingenuous of you to keep trying to suggest that my opinion ( which you perceive as negative to your apparent aims) is informed by my personal aesthetic taste at all and as such can be easily dismissed.

Your obvious selectivity is referred to as confirmation bias.

 

"It is the peculiar and perpetual error of the human understanding to be more moved and excited by affirmatives than by negatives." --Francis Bacon

 

You didn't, in fact state that you were interested in my aesthetic judgement on the piece either;

Could i trouble you for Your views on this one.(i am being secretive ad don`t want to post it on the forum)

Just a professionals views on it.

this from your first pm

 

It was your artistic opinion i was after and that you gave.

wrong...I gave a technical assessment of what I could see and a judgement on the design. Thank you for your kind compliments though...

 

hence its just a period school works.

no...this is not at all certain.

 

 

rust has been inserted in the sukashi by the tiny little rust Gnome...or somesuch.

and here you reveal a remarkable lack of understanding of rust....no gnomes are actually involved at all ( they do however, do the delicate stuff in my own studio when I'm asleep) :D ...creating rust is stunningly simple, and making it look very old is not a huge accomplishment at all. In fact, based on some opinions expressed here I may even change direction with my work and meet the demand for this sort of thing myself....he he, then you won't hear me shouting "fake"!

 

I am sorry this caused such debate really.

don't be...as a few have already said, this makes for a great discussion...as long as we keep logical and consider the evidence fairly.

 

Anyway, I hope this thread isn't exhausted yet...