Kantei help

[swordnoob]

Hello all,

 

A long while back I acquired a mumei katana with a kicho attribution to Kanemoto. I know that those papers aren't reliable due to a scandal in the 80s but I'd like to share what I have and get some opinions on age, school, and possible smith attributions.

 

With my limited knowledge, here's what I think I know about the blade:

sugata:

- narrow mihaba

- chi kissaki

- small sori? (it doesn't look as curved but that could be due to suriage)

- sori looks to be closer towards the munemachi than middle (so koshi sori?)

- nakago is kiri jiri

- shinogi ji looks to be at around 1/3 of mihaba or less (don't know if that's considered narrow, wide, or "normal")

 

hada:

- the blade's not in the best polish but I think it's mostly masame with some traces of ko-mokume

- jigane looks dark (I'm not sure if this is due to the hadori polish)

- has ware

 

hamon:

- mostly regular rounded sanbonsugi? hadori polish does follow the general outline of the hamon to an extent, but makes the peaks not as steep and sharper looking. There are some double peaks (looks like two smushed together into one) along the hamon. Kyo-yakidashi?

- narrow yakiba (don't know if this is due to multiple polishes),

- boshi is jizo

- nie? with some larger particles near the peaks

 

So all in all, I think the sword has some attributes of mino den. In addition, if we're just looking at the hamon, attribution to kanemoto makes sense (I believe magoroku kanemoto was the one who had the regular rounded sanbonsugi). In terms of age, I have no clue. The patina on the nakago is pretty dark and so is the steel so I'd assume it's an older blade (maybe sometime in the muromachi period?)

 

Without further ado, here's pictures of the kicho and the sword

 

Please enlighten this swordnoob with your thoughts

 

 

 

[swordnoob]

 Some additional pictures. I'm also a photograph noob that only has a smartphone. Hopefully I captured enough about the sword

[swordnoob]

One last pic that captures the hamon and the kicho. Sorry for the triple post

[PNSSHOGUN]

From the Hamon it is very likely to be the work of a later generation Kanemoto smith.

[swordnoob]

  On 9/9/2022 at 3:21 AM, PNSSHOGUN said:

From the Hamon it is very likely to be the work of a later generation Kanemoto smith.

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Thanks for the input John. Do you know where I can find out more about the later generations of Kanemoto or other smiths that used sanbonsugi? From https://www.nihonto.com/magoroku-kanemoto-孫六兼元/ I read that later generations of Kanemoto used sharper peaks in their sanbonsugi, and somewhere else that a lot of mino den smiths used sanbonsugi.

[PNSSHOGUN]

With Mumei works your best bet is to search through examples of the later generation Kanemoto and compare Sugata, Hamon and Boshi.

 

http://www.sho-shin.com/kanemoto.html

[swordnoob]

Thanks for the link!

[swordnoob]

Hmm... could it possibly be Kanenaka (https://nihontoclub.com/smiths/KAN1706)? The hamon looks similar and in some of his works that I could find, so does the boshi and sugata (to my untrained eyes anyway).

As far as I can tell, it also looks like https://collections.royalarmouries.org/object/rac-object-51241.html by mino kanemoto aside from the fact that the yakiba isn't as narrow...

[David Flynn]

It doesn't look like a Kanemoto.   The Hamon is Togarigunome, which is a Seki style hamon.  It also has a Yakidashi, which to me would place it, late 1600s.

[swordnoob]

Thanks David. I learned a new term, yakidashi, and there appears to be a kyo-yakidashi. which may imply  In regards to the hamon being togari-gunome, how pointy should the peaks be to qualify as togari? The hadori does make them a bit pointier than they actually are. I'll try to take a video later that shows the hamon under the polish

[Alex A]

Nice sword!

 

Hamon pattern continues into the boshi = Koto

 

You mention dark steel, looks dark to me too, blackish? = Sue Seki

 

Obvious Masame in the Shinogi-Ji  = Sue Seki.

 

Nailing it down to one smith and exact time is a very difficult task, this is the fun that comes with Mumei swords

 

Just enjoy the blade.

 

Ps, not looked into what the papers state, but yeh, i would want to find similar swords too.

[David Flynn]

Alex,  Hamon continuing into the Boshi, can be found on all periods.   Did you take the Yakidashi, into consideration?

[Alex A]

Hi Dave, read that its mainly Koto or Shinshinto, this dont look to be Shinshinto 

 

No doubt if you look for swords during the Shinto period you might find them

 

Only flew over this, to be honest i could not tell whether that was Yakidashi or not as there are parts up the blade where the the gunome peaks settle, but maybe your right.

 

Always difficult from images, especially when its small section pictures.

 

[Alex A]

Hello again, actually, hope i didnt sound too confident ruling out Shinshinto!

 

Sometimes you read a bit about whats been said, look and assume.

 

It dont look like a Shinshinto blade, but can we see a clear image of the nakago please, out of curiosity.

 

No point doing it unless you put the time in.

 

 

[swordnoob]

Here's pictures of the nakago and the yakidashi. In addition, I've linked videos showing the hamon as they were too big to upload directly (apologies for the bit of shakiness in the videos). I was thinking more about the latter and I was wondering whether the sword was not cur down to where the mekugi-ana in the bottom was and the original was just where the second mekugi-ana that's been filled with lead. Otherwise, the transition to kyo-yakidashi? might be really long or that may have just been an irregularity in the hamon pattern. What're your thoughts on this?

 

Videos showing hamon (two of each side) - I'm not sure if it's possible to embed the videos here

https://streamable.com/uutvyl

https://streamable.com/j9sr70

https://streamable.com/nsjvig

https://streamable.com/fk9tvv

 

 

 

[Gakusee]

Late Kanemoto is completely plausible and likely on this one. Kanemoto is a Mino smith as is the Seki school. 

[Alex A]

Nakago looks ok for that era too, think they call it Keicho-suriage.

 

Dont know enough about the yakidashi on Kanemoto blades, perhaps just one of those things that crop up occasionally?

 

Read about Mino yakidashi but this dont look to fit.

 

You do find Yakidashi on Mino blades , an example

 

[Alex A]

To be fair, the sword at the top of this page doesn't exactly blast off at gunome.

 

Unless you know the swords then something might just stand out as unusual.

 

http://www.sho-shin.com/kanemoto.html

[swordnoob]

Thanks for all the replies. I've been trying to find images of swords made by later Kanemoto smiths without much luck.

 

On another note, I was thinking more about yakidashi, and whether that made sense on a blade that had been shortened. In my search for answers, I came across the term "fumbari" at http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/kissaki.html#FUMBARI. It appears that the sword does has fumbari which could imply that the suriage was relatively short, and possibly only from the mekugi-ana filled in from lead. That could explain why we see yakidashi. If that were the case, I wonder what was the purpose of the mukugi-ana at the bottom....

 

[Jacques]

If hamon starts really there (red circle) that sword is ubu.

 

 

 

[swordnoob]

I've uploaded the videos of the hamon on youtube for easier viewing. I'll post more pictures closer to the yakidashi when I get a chance to as I don't think the hamon ends at the hamachi

 

Apologies on the sound in the videos. I forgot to record without audio so now there's a lot of static noise in them

 

 

[Jacques]

I remain on my first impression this nakago is ubu, in any case it is not Magoroku shodai or nidai, but Shinto. 

[Alex A]

Hi Jacques, when you say Shinto, are you meaning Shinto as in very early Shinto ?

 

Little confused about how you say it is Ubu. I see the hamon run into the nakago and the end of the nakago chopped off. Are you saying it is Ubu and made to look suriage ?, as in Shinshinto maybe?

 

The mention of dark steel got me thinking. I have a sword here, 2 character mei. Difficult to pin down to anyone particular in a specific line of Sue Seki smiths, even further on down the line into early Shinto, as the work crosses over and looks similar. 

 

Im not saying its Kanemoto or anything, as i dont know, just that the blade reminds me of Sue-Seki, though the hamon for some reason reminds me of later swords.

 

 

 

 

[Jacques]

Alex 

 

Hamon doesn't run into nakago but run out at the hamachi. More, the length of the yakidashi corresponds to a ubu sword. It is Shinto because this is the only period where the yakidashi was used, when you find it on a Shinshinto sword it is because it is an utsuchi of a Shinto blade. About the color of the steel, at this level of knowledge it is impossible to say anything without having several specimens of different colors to compare (and it's not certain you can.). To my eyes and from what i can see the hamon makes me think to Darani school (Mino) but without any certainty. 

I don't see if the boshi has a kaeri it's seems yakitsume.  

[Alex A]

To be honest, never took much notice of Yakidashi and length until now.

 

Nothing to do with this blade, but was just looking, gets quite long sometimes.

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-kikumon-echizen-kami-fujiwara-nobuyoshi/

https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-oite-osaka-izumi-kami-kunisada-saku-kore-23th-juyo-paper/

 

Cheers.

 

 

[swordnoob]

  On 9/14/2022 at 3:55 PM, Jacques D. said:

Alex 

 

Hamon doesn't run into nakago but run out at the hamachi. More, the length of the yakidashi corresponds to a ubu sword. It is Shinto because this is the only period where the yakidashi was used, when you find it on a Shinshinto sword it is because it is an utsuchi of a Shinto blade. About the color of the steel, at this level of knowledge it is impossible to say anything without having several specimens of different colors to compare (and it's not certain you can.). To my eyes and from what i can see the hamon makes me think to Darani school (Mino) but without any certainty. 

I don't see if the boshi has a kaeri it's seems yakitsume.  

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I just took a look and the hamon does not terminate at the hamachi, but goes a bit further. Regarding the boshi, you're right. I don't see any kaeri and it's most likely yakitsume.

 

I'll try to take better photos of both

[Alex A]

Thanks Victor, be good to know the blade length too, cheers

[swordnoob]

Here's a picture of the hamon extending past the hamachi (I've circled it in red). I tried to take a pic of the other side but failed to get the lighting correct. It's also a lot less visible there but again, does extend past the hamachi

 

Here's a picture of the boshi. Kaeri doesn't seem to be present. Again, I failed to get the proper lighting on the other side and couldn't take a pic. If I were to describe it, the hamon is less "flat" closer to the kissaki

 

One thing I noticed was that the kissaki looks slightly curved back. Is there a term for that?

[Alex A]

Hi Victor,  difficult to tell from that image

 

This might help, see the images.

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/suriage.html

[swordnoob]

  On 9/14/2022 at 5:42 PM, Alex A said:

Thanks Victor, be good to know the blade length too, cheers

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Ah, I just put it away, but length is approximately 67-69 cm. I'll take more exact measurements when I get a chance. When I first got it, I was told the measurements were 67.12 cm, 3.1 cm at the motohaba, and 2.2 cm at the sakihaba. I'm not sure how correct these measurements are. I believe the kicho and torokusho say that it's 2 shaku 2 sun 1 bu (66.9 cm)