Type 3 NCO

[Dabedo]

Allllllooooooha here are pix of a gunto I’ve had for awhile 

The scabbard and accessories appear original to be a type three NCO

 

 

but I’m not sure about the blade signature seems funny any suggestions would be appreciated it’s a steep learning curve with these swords

Mahalo and have a great day

 

 

[MarcoUdin]

RS officer gunto signed Kanenori I believe. 

[Dabedo]

Mahalo for the input, does rs mean regular service?

 

[MarcoUdin]

Rinji Seishiki 

 

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/unveiling-rinjiseishiki-sword-1940-a-793016/

 

 

[vajo]

I hate that word. Rinji Seishiki is a fantasy name given by nick k.

 

It's a type 3 gunto. 

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, vajo said:

I hate that word. Rinji Seishiki is a fantasy name given by nick k.

 

It's a type 3 gunto. 

That's funny, Chris! Ha!  Because "Type 3" is also a fantasy name!  There was never an Imperial edict, for a 'type' designation.  This was a contingency modification of the Type 98, using the Type 98 edict and orders.  Even the "3" is erroneous as the model was designed in 1938, publicly released in 1940.  It had been in production 3 years before 1943, which is the year it should have come out if it is to be called Type 3.

[vajo]

Yes but it is a technical name.

Rinji Seishiki is a derogatory term of the lower class.

[vajo]

All that speculation which koshirae has more worth is non sense.

Did you think a proud Japanese officer would carry a buzz sword with the mockery of the lower ranks?

[vajo]

You found high superior class made blades in Type 3 koshirae. And many showato blades in blinky blinky shining type98 koshirae.

[Kiipu]

Darth Vajo is back in town!

 

Humor aside, I agree with Chris in that it should not be called Rinji Seishiki 臨時制式.  This is merely a category of ordnance and nothing more.  Without a prefix and suffix, Rinji Seishiki has no meaning other than the category it is in.  To flesh it out, one needs to add the year of initiation or introduction and what the item is.  That is why I use the prefix of Type 100 and the suffix of Military Sword or Officer's Sword.

 

In the case of the army, Type 100 denotes the year 1940.  This fits in with the existing informal terminology used for the Type 94, Type 97, and Type 98.  The use of Type 3 is inaccurate as it would indicate the year of introduction as 1943 which is not the case.

Type 100 Contingency Military Sword or Type 100 Contingency Sword

Edited September 7, 2022 by Kiipu

[DTM72]

Wel at least no one has called it a "Marine Landing Force" or "Naval Landing Force" sword. I've also heard them referred to as a "Pattern 44"...which is incorrect too.

[Bruce Pennington]

32 minutes ago, Kiipu said:

informal terminology used for the Type 94, Type 97, and Type 98. 

I am now out of my depth of expertise, but aren’t the “type“ designations official terms?

 

To use the word “type“ for the type 98 contingency model would be similar to using a “type“ designation for the different variations of the NCO sword. We might as well start calling the aluminum handle NCO a “type 98 NCO”, and the wooden handle NCO a “type 43 NCO” sword.

[Bruce Pennington]

4 hours ago, vajo said:

Yes but it is a technical name.

Rinji Seishiki is a derogatory term of the lower class.

Chris I understand your aversion to the term. But it simply means “contingency model”.  Not meant to be derogatory at all.

[BANGBANGSAN]

   Sometime just hard for people to change what they prefer or used to.  Rinji, Type 3, Type 100, Type 44, NLF sword, whatever you feel like to call it, as long as we all know what is it.
   Like Paratrooper bayonet.Most of people call it type 2 (after the Type 2 rifle),some call it Type 100 ,some call it Paratrooper bayonet,the other call it test No.1 Knife/Bayonet .But the official name looks like it should be  試製一式短劍 Test Type 1 short sword.

 

 

 

[vajo]

21 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Chris I understand your aversion to the term. But it simply means “contingency model”.  Not meant to be derogatory at all.

 

 臨時制式 means temporary (ceremony). 

The Type3 was not temporary because it was made during Type98 were produced further. The Type3 was the better koshirae for war and was designed by the tachi of general yamamoto kansuke who wear the sword during the war of kawanakajima 1561.

 

 

[Kiipu]

47 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I am now out of my depth of expertise, but aren’t the “type“ designations official terms?

 

Yes and no.  The officer's swords were introduced via uniform regulations and did not use "Type".  The use of Type 94/97/98 is a postwar distinction, based upon the year of the uniform regulation.  Hence my statement about informal use.  If my memory is correct, the Japanese referred to them as the New Military Swords 新軍刀 Shin-Guntō.

 

The Type 95 Military Sword 九五式軍刀 on the other hand was adopted as an ordnance item and was given a type designation.

[Kiipu]

25 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

But the official name looks like it should be 試製一式短劍 Test Type 1 Short Sword.

 

試製一式短剣 = shisei ichi-shiki tanken = Experimental Type 1 Knife.

The same characters 短剣 are used to describe the naval dirk.

[Bruce Pennington]

27 minutes ago, Kiipu said:

The use of Type 94/97/98 is a postwar distinction, based upon the year of the uniform regulation.  Hence my statement about informal use.

Well, how do you like that! then the whole hullabaloo is just a bunch of hot air that we have been arguing about.

 

Wonder who started the whole “type” designation in the first place?

[Bruce Pennington]

You got me thinking now (that's always a mistake! Ha!).  We could use a "version"  system, like Steve and Ernie have on the "type 95's":

Japanese Army officer swords

Version 1 - the old Type 94

Version 2 - Type 98

Version 3 - Light-weight 94/98

Version 4 - Contingency model 98

 

The versions could then break down to saya types

Version 1.1 - 94 metal saya

Version 1.2 - 94 wooden saya, textured

 

 

Version 2.1 - 98 metal saya

Version 2.2 - 99 wooden saya, textured

 

{don't think there are any variations of Version 3}

 

Version 4.1 - RS metal saya, standard version

Version 4.2 - RS metal saya, upgraded 2 release buttons

Version 4.3 - RS wooden saya, textured, 2 buttons

 

Of course Navy needs the same system, but it would be simpler.

 

Just a proposal.  Accepting any/all modifications.

[Kiipu]

Keep in mind that we do need something to call them and there should be a general consensus on what that designation is.  It does not mean that it should be fixed in stone though.  Like everything else in life, new information comes along and changes the way we see things.  Remember what we were told in our misspent youth; improvise, overcome, and adapt.

 

It is doubtful at this time that drastic name changes be will be accepted by others, especially when all the sword books are using something entirely different.  Well, that is my two cents and probably not worth much more than that.

[dwmc]

There's probably not another gunto with more miscellaneous names as the Type 3 shingunto. Four or five years ago, I believe it was Shamsy (Steve) suggested, based on the year 1940, it should actually be designated Type 0.                                                                                                                                 Dave M.

[BANGBANGSAN]

24 minutes ago, dwmc said:

There's probably not another gunto with more miscellaneous names as the Type 3 shingunto. Four or five years ago, I believe it was Shamsy (Steve) suggested, based the year 1940, it should actually be named the Type 0.                                                                                                                                 Dave M.

 I think IJN use Type 0 for the 1940 model (零式艦上戦闘機 Mitsubishi A6M Type 0 carrier fighter）.IJA use Type 100 for the model of the same year(百式司令部偵察機 Mitsubishi Ki-46,Type 100 Command Reconnaissance Aircraft）。
   So, If I have to choose between Type 100 and Type 0, I'll pick Type 100 for that reason, it's an Army sword. But I found out more people know what sword I'm talking about when I use Type 3 than the other names.

[Kiipu]

The things I have to do to keep Trystan happy!

兵器の名称に関する件通牒

 

Some clown had the audacity to say something to that effect.

Introduction of the Type 94 Gunto, Post #5

[MarcoUdin]

Any of the names above are fine with me, but to get back to topic I just wanted the OP to understand this is an officer sword and not an NCO sword.