cspage Posted May 13, 2009 Report Posted May 13, 2009 In considering the string from the Nihonto board discussing the function of the tsuba (“Mumei tanto in Koshirae”), the question popped into my head “Why are there so few, if any, accessible tsuba that actually display evidence of combat?" Or am I just too late to the game and they are all either resting in collections or rejected as damaged, thus destroyed/lost/abandoned to the rust bin/recycled over the centuries? Or am I just not looking in the right places? True that the tsuba as art would presuppose that damage would devalue a piece and thus make it less desirable as an art work, but I would suspect that a truly used tsuba from a historical viewpoint would have value as such. Anyone have insight? Thanks for considering this question. Colin
reinhard Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 Colin, Japanese conception of serious fighting is basically offensive, not defensive. Unlike most cultures in other parts of the world, samurai went to war without hand-held shields. It is the same with tsuba: They were never meant to be a protecting device from Heian days on. Their purpose was to prevent hands from slipping into the blade when thrusting. reinhard
Baka Gaijin Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 Good Morning all, I suggest that we don't see many tsuba with battlefield damage due to the fact that with the exception of the Bakumatsu/Boshin war period, the bulk of tsuba were produced during the Pax Tokugawa and thus pass down from an age with little conflict apart from personal. Tsuba surviving from Momoyama and before, survive perhaps for aesthetic reasons, the battlefield damaged pieces being discarded when a blade was remounted, in the same way Katchu becomes modified as it passes down the years. However, there's a tsuba with a suggested musket ball dent on No 9 of Grey's 30 Tsuba sale currently showing in For Sale or Trade. Here's some actual examples of a documented combat, the blade and habaki showing the scars to ha side: http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/katanainfight.html and a Wakizashi with scar to mune: http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/Taema.html Cheers Malcolm
Rich T Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 All good valid points here, and yes, the tsuba is to protect the hand from sliding onto the sword, not from sword strikes in my opinion, but as Colin has pointed out, there are examples (write or wrong ) of this. http://www.meishitou.com/shin_tsuba_html/13.html cheers Rich
Bugyotsuji Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 Rich, a friend showed me that very Tsuba the other day! On a J auction site last week there was a very rusted and pitted Tsuba from the Muromachi period described as having been damaged 'probably around the time it was made and probably in battle, judging from the age of the rust overall, including in the crater on the damaged edge'. The description went on to say that there was no actual proof, but such a scenario must be quite likely... I can hear the bloke muttering 'Roman da yo, ne!' (Romantic thought)
Baka Gaijin Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 Hi Rich, If you zoom in and look carefully at the tsuba in question, the line seems to continue the other side of the nakago ana, which suggests that if it is a sword damage, then it occured when the Tsuba was unmounted. I've a vague recollection of an article concerning the destruction testing of blades in the late Edo period using various items of varying resistances including Tsuba. Can anyone expand on this? Cheers Malcolm
Lorenzo Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 I've a vague recollection of an article concerning the destruction testing of blades in the late Edo period using various items of varying resistances including Tsuba. Can anyone expand on this? It was the article about the ara-tameshi, where an osaka shinto katana was broken in two pieces striking on a shibuichi tsuba. Blade number 10 was an Osaka Shinto katana. It was used to cut a tsuba made of shibuichi. The blade broke in two at the monouchi section upon impact. http://www.nihontocraft.com/Aratameshi_Nihonto.html
Jacques D. Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 Colin, Japanese conception of serious fighting is basically offensive, not defensive. Unlike most cultures in other parts of the world, samurai went to war without hand-held shields. It is the same with tsuba: They were never meant to be a protecting device from Heian days on. Their purpose was to prevent hands from slipping into the blade when thrusting. reinhard I practice kenjutsu (Katori Shinto Ryu) since some decades and i have always learned that the one who attacks is the one who will die. I have been told the main purpose of a tsuba is to to make the different parts of the tsuka interdependent and ; this is why they are made of soft metal so as to be unbreakable; and also to balance the sword. Slipping to the blade? I don't think, you forget the shimeru which is the action of gripping the tsuka like we wring a floorcloth. A nice "fighting" tsuba below:
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 I practice kenjutsu (Katori Shinto Ryu) since some decades and i have always learned that the one who attacks is the one who will die. This is because most of the present-day Ryu focuses on duel *not* battlefield tactics. I have been told the main purpose of a tsuba is to to make the different parts of the tsuka interdependent and ; this is why they are made of soft metal so as to be unbreakable; Soft metal ? This would rule out the mass of tsuba made of iron. Slipping to the blade? I don't think, ...OMISSIS... and also to balance the sword. Early Tsuba for Tachi used on battlefield were of laquered leather. Hardly the best material to parry or balance anything. It's undeniable that as a *secondary* purpose they can be useful in protecting the hand, but that's not what they were historically intended for. Some Ryu even teach the use of Nodachi placing one hand on a cloth wrapping the "forte", on the habakimoto, meaning the Tusba is useless in therms of protection in close-combat using long swords.
Kevin Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 Some Ryu even teach the use of Nodachi placing one hand on a cloth wrapping the "forte", on the habakimoto, meaning the Tusba is useless in therms of protection in close-combat using long swords. That's pretty much identical to European half-swording techniques, particularly those used with similarly overlong swords like the original claidh mor and the landsknecht swords. These often had leather stitched round the forte. Bear in mind that these huge swords would have been for battlefield use, and frequently used by infantry against cavalry. I doubt that you'd duel with such swords. The user would therefore be wearing armour, including gauntlets. They therefore already have hand protection separate from the guard. True, some of these giant swords have a secondary guard; however the construction of such secondary guards appears to have been more to catch an opponent's sword as it slid down the blade. Presumably it could, given the potential leverage, be used to wrench a weapon out of the opponent's grip. Kevin
Kevin Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 And, having finally worked out images (I think), on old photo of a sword signed Bungo ju Yamato no kami Fujiwara Tadayuki with three bites by another sword taken out of it, two close together and one further towards the habaki. The cutting edge is to the top of the picture: I have seen a WW2 sword with the fuchi mangled and the tsuba scarred by a bullet. I presume that the soldier carrying it got lucky at that moment, because the sword stopped the bullet. Whether his luck continued is another matter. Kevin
Jacques D. Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 Hi, Off topic on: This is because most of the present-day Ryu focuses on duel *not* battlefield tactics. Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu 天真正伝香取神道流 was created by Iisaza Choisai Ieano (1387/1488). This school teach Ken, Kodachi; ryoto (both together), Naginata, Yari, bo (wood stick) and others such fortifications, ninjutsu (espionage) "these two ones are not teached nowadays". this Ryu is the oldest registered in Japan and became Intangible Cultural Asset in 1960. This ryuha was developped for armoured warriors groups not for duel (i would say a battle is nothing else than many duels at the same time and at the same place at least untill the use of firearms). Off topic off. Soft metal ? This would rule out the mass of tsuba made of iron. Iron is not hard steel. if i'm not wrong, iron tsuba are made in the same metal than the shingane verily less carbonised. Broken tsuba = unusable sword Early Tsuba for Tachi used on battlefield were of laquered leather. Hardly the best material to parry or balance anything Do you know what means the term *progress*? Paris ne s'est pas fait en un seul jour
Lorenzo Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 Going back on topic, I suppose it is plausible to find some tsuba with battle scars, but those scars has been caused by incidentally strikes and not by a voluntary and planned front attack toward the enemy's hands, which seems a bit too dangerous and not directed to a unguarded zone. :? I suspect one can make a crash going forward with car and destroy only the rear of the car, if he slip on water and then crash
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 Iron is not hard steel. Strange idea of a "soft metal". Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu 天真正伝香取神道流 was created by Iisaza Choisai Ieano (1387/1488). This school teach Ken, Kodachi; ryoto (both together), Naginata, Yari, bo (wood stick) and others such fortifications, ninjutsu (espionage) "these two ones are not teached nowadays". this Ryu is the oldest registered in Japan and became Intangible Cultural Asset in 1960. This ryuha was developped for armoured warriors groups not for duel (i would say a battle is nothing else than many duels at the same time and at the same place at least untill the use of firearms). And you belongs to *this* Koryu ? Do you know what means the term *progress*? Paris ne s'est pas fait en un seul jour Sorry Jacques, I was under the impression you were serious. But it's obious you're yet again "having fun as you can". Iron Tsuba appeared much before the leather ones (as evidences tell us so far).
Jacques D. Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 Hi, To to speak seriously, the danger of a hand slipping to the blade is near zero, you could more throw the blade away. Look at this vidéo of katori shinto iaijutsu, you will see a hand slipping along the blade (wait for the slow motion). http://www.akban.org/wiki/index.php/Kus ... ken,_TSKSR Otake sensei is Shihan of the school.
rkg Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 Hi, I hate to use the same pic in several posts, but the wakizashi whose closeup I have online still has a piece of the other guy's sword stuck in the kiri komi - its amazing that they preserved it.... http://www.rkgphotos.com/recent_stuff/ko_uda.jpg There are a number of tsuba out there that seem to have cuts on them, but if you look carefully, they're usually where it would be impossible to actually deliver a blow to cause them it the tsuba was actually mounted (as was mentioned in an earlier post on this thread) - I'd posit that these are effectively a "proof" mark to show how tough the tsuba was. It would be interesting to know if it was by edict, custom, or merely a marketing tool for the tsubako. Wasn't there a kyo in one of the haynes auctions that really seems to have taken a sword hit? I seem to recall one having a wicked cut in it. I had the honor of photographing a tsuba a couple of years ago that had a pretty obvious musket ball hit - the cool part was that the ball hit was from the "back", so either the guy actually had the sword drawn, or the ball went through him... Best, rkg (Richard George)
cspage Posted May 14, 2009 Author Report Posted May 14, 2009 Thank you all for your participation. I do remember seeing a mirror-maker tsuba on Fred Weissberg’s site a few years ago that had an apparent strike mark on the mimi and I wondered about that mark in relation to the blade possibly inhabiting the nakagoana at the time of the “strike.” Colin
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 Otake sensei is Shihan of the school. I know, you're not the only one having long years of training under the belt, even if you're the only one that dare to use a Ryu name to achieve a predominant position in forum catfigt with the risk to put shame on it if you're wrong. And just to find how you're right : To to speak seriously, the danger of a hand slipping to the blade is near zero, you could more throw the blade away. ...OMISSIS... Seppa act as you quoted tsuba should do, absorbing shocks, and as per defending the hand with all your experience you should know that at least from Kofun the hands of warriors were armored needing no further protection (did I mention "evolution"?) until the Edo "dueling" period which seems you're still sticked to :
Brian Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 Just like kids sometimes.... Tsuba weren't needed much to protect the hand, as blades were not supposed to be used to block a strike. If they did, then the mune was used. Most fights were over in one or 2 strikes, not like you see on tv. That being said, most swords in the world have some form of guard. It is a natural thing to add, just in case. I am sure samurai felt better having it there. Of course they were also used for balance, and all the other reasons mentioned here. It is pointless trying to disprove one theory or not. Basically they were used. Isn't that enough? As a guard to prevent the hand sliding forward? Hmm. Since the tachi and katana are not primarily thrusting weapons, but are cutting and slicing weapons..I cannot see where a strong thrust would endanger the hand all too often. About as likely as the tsuba blocking a strike. Unlikely, but probably happened a few times none the less... Jacques is correct in that if your hand was in danger of sliding forward onto the blade, you were far more likely to lose the sword when swinging it and having the whole sword slide out where there is no tsuba to stop it. Again..unlikely but I am sure it happened. Once again we cannot go back in time and find out the exact truth. But probably a combination of all of those factors, as well as natural progression of sword development. Heck..could even be to have the sword sitting a bit outwards and therefore easier to grasp and draw. Without a tsuba, it would lie closer to the body and be harder to grasp in a hurry Brian
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 Jacques is correct in that if your hand was in danger of sliding forward onto the blade, you were far more likely to lose the sword when swinging it and having the whole sword slide out where there is no tsuba to stop it. Guess both of you forget some holes placed either in the tachi's handle and in Katana's Tsuba *exactly* to hold... what ?... a string to avoid this very occurence? This doesn't work the other way around, toward the blade. And as per how much Japanese swords were used as trusting weapons in battlefield *against armor*... I'll skip. Ya know, is late for us kids...
Stephen Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 I didn't read all the flogging of the topic , did anyone mention that to start the draw the thumb pushes on the tsuba or have I just been watching too many lone wolf and cub dvd's?
Jacques D. Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 Hi, Off topic on once again you should know that at least from Kofun the hands of warriors were armored needing no further protection Partially protected only, the internal side of the wrist is only protected by some mattress, below just under the skin there are nerves,tendons and arteries (it is one of our favorite target). I don't think you know/understand any thing about katori shinto ryu technicals. Now you can believe all that you want, it will not make me worry Off topic of definitely.
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 Partially protected only, the internal side of the wrist is only protected by some mattress, below just under the skin there are nerves,tendons and arteries (it is one of our favorite target). These parts are not interested by the topic and you should know this. The hand is what slips on the blade, not the wrist. BTW the lower wrist (unarmored) is not protected by the Tsuba anyway, that's why it's a target. This works *against* the theory Tsuba act as a protection. I don't think you know/understand any thing about katori shinto ryu technicals.Now you can believe all that you want, it will not make me worry Actually I was writing to avoid misconceptions for less advanced forumites and surely not to make you worry. I'm confident they can now make their own opinion. Of course I care less then nothing what *you think* I know about Katori Shinto Ryu
Ted Tenold Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 Okay guys, let's just agree to disagree on this, yes? Is it possible that it is both? I believe so. Can a sword not cut and thrust? Yes, it does as they are designed for both tasks, though more for cutting than thrusting but still a thrusting weapon none the less. If one looks at swords throughout the world there are overwhelming examples of guards or even minimal "bolsters" to create a tactile reference point and various protections. The glass is neither half full nor half empty on this matter........it is twice as big as it needs to be. It's easy enough to say that there are swords with them and swords without them. Aikuchi are sans tsuba leaving no protection against either slipping or striking, Hamidashi have a minimal tsuba that would not protect the hands very much. Loosing the weapon altogether is not out of the question; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1b_P879E ... re=channel In the above link one can see how a wrist lanyard would have helped the sword attached to the swordsman. :lol: The holes in the tsuba were called Udenukiana, and like many things, they eventually became more a decorative legacy than a useful feature. So, to address the topic; I have seen a couple rare examples of tsuba damaged by cuts, and one actually was shot with a musket ball. I think there was some theory that they were occasionally tested by the makers, which might explain the area of the cut being in a place that would be unlikely to be struck during combat. I once saw an example I am convinced was inflicted during combat, demonstrated a cut in a location very likely to be struck, but also a distortion of the metal adjacent to the nakago ana showing the tsuba absorbed the shock against the nakago. Very interesting and convincing example. When is comes to seeing few examples of kirikomi on tsuba, the maxims of Japanese combat are movement based, not attrition based. Avoiding the enemy is much better than slugging it out with your equipment.
Jacques D. Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 Hi, These parts are not interested by the topic and you should know this. The hand is what slips on the blade, not the wrist. As already said you don't understand, i spoke about fighting technicals. I never said the tsuba is made to protect hands, i say the risk that the right hand slips on the blade is near zero. Above you talk about holes in the tsuba, there are udenuki-ana/ quoted from: http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/tsuba.htm Occasionally tsuba will be found with two small holes near the base of the tsuba. These are udenuki-ana which represent the sun and moon and were likely used for threading a leather wrist thong to prevent dropping the sword in battle.
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 I never said the tsuba is made to protect hands, I knew you had to say this :D . there are udenuki-ana/ quoted from: http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/tsuba.htm Thanks I know the technical therm. I was sarcastic due to the fact Brian was supporting a mistake of yours.
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 the maxims of Japanese combat are movement based, not attrition based. Avoiding the enemy is much better than slugging it out with your equipment. *This* should have been the reply of a "very long time experienced particioner". Thanks for that Ted.
Jacques D. Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 Hi, *This* should have been the reply of a "very long time experienced particioner". That was suggested in my first reply about who will die, but that needs some understanding of kenjutsu. To take the line and to take it again is one of the most important point in kenjutsu. Thanks I know the technical therm. I was sarcastic due to the fact Brian was supporting a mistake of yours. Why not your mistake? Now i will let you alone with your belief.
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 Now i will let you alone with your belief. Thanks Jacques. Sometimes me too "have to have fun as I can". :lol:
kusunokimasahige Posted May 14, 2009 Report Posted May 14, 2009 Paris ne s'est pas fait en un seul jour Need to correct you there.. the proper expression is Rome was not built in one day.. Lutétia (Paris) does not come into the equasion... Gaul as a whole was conquered long before Lutétia became a large city... KM
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