HI to every one from Smith Forge

[Smith Forge]

Hi guys and gals. I have beenlurking in this forum for some time and I love it. I have learned alot on Nihonto and fittings. Oh sorry let me introduce myself. My name is John Smith ( Really I have ID LOL ) I am a bladesmith in Cascade MD I specialize in Japanese Style Blades. Which is why I love this forum.

 

 

So I just wanted to post and say hi and to start getting aquainted with the members. I have a web site http://www.smith-forge.org I try to keep it updated as often as possible. I also have a bunch of videos up on youtube under the username smithforge.

 

So like I said hello and salutations.

[John A Stuart]

Hi John, It's always good to have the voice of the artisan giving their insight. John

[Bugyotsuji]

Hi John,

 

Welcome to the site. Did you study in Japan?

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Modern western blades, has nothing to do with Nihon-tô.

[Smith Forge]

Thanks for the warm welcome and no I did not study in Japan. I am self taught with the help of several Japanese Style Bladesmiths.

 

As for Western and Nihonto, there is no comparison at all, but one has to remember that there are several hundred Japanese Bladesmiths in Japan now who make modern blades, and this is what I do I make Japanese Style Blades using western methods.

 

But to me and several others Western style Japanese Blades are just as beautiful. As for a matter of fact there as sveral dozen Japanese who make swords who have moved to China so they can make more than two Blades a month.

 

But like I said no comparison at all.

[Smith Forge]

Oh one other side not there as several Polishers in here. I may have some questions for them.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

that there are several hundred Japanese Bladesmiths in Japan now who make modern blades,

 

What do you mean?

[Smith Forge]

Thru the study of Nihonto, which helps me aspire to be a better bladesmith, that is why I am here the results of the past masters helps me to create the best possible blades. That pretty much sums it up. I have several refernce books on the craft and I have the video that Yoshindo Yashihara did back in the 90's. And there is tons of information online.

 

My methods are the Kamakura period using one of the five traditions, which is Bizen for creating my blades. I follow several togoshi as far as polish goes, Ted Tenold being one of them. I use Brian from Ronnin Swords for my fittings and such. I pretty much do my own polish and habaki creation. So I am tied to Nihonto as much as I am tied to Gendatio or Western blades.

[Smith Forge]

Oh sorry I did not read your post all the way.

 

Today in Japan Nihonto is used to describe antique blades if I am not mistaken. All swords made in Japan today are modern swords Gendatio if my memory serves me well. And if I am off on my assumption please some one chime in here ad correct me as I want to be as historically correct as possible.

[Ford Hallam]

Hi John,

 

and welcome to the forum . The term Nihonto is applied, very tightly, to all traditionally made Japanese swords...these criteria do not include the age of the blade, only he material and method of production.

 

You['ll find most of our more experienced and seasoned members here to be less than tolerant of anything less than those standards...and for good reason . As you seem well aware, there is a world of difference between what we generally recognise as true Nihonto and blades inspired by that tradition. Personal appreciation of any particular blade in alternative "traditions" will have to remain a personal preference, like an appreciation of country music ...here, the standards of what constitute absolute quality in this field is not easily challenged

But to me and several others Western style Japanese Blades are just as beautiful.

So you'll not be surprised to discover that this statement will be considered irrelevant here....the opinion expressed has no qualification when considered against the greatest of Japanese Art Swords. It merely serves to demonstrate a profound lack of understanding of the "real thing".

 

I almost want to apologise for this apparently harsh and abrupt "welcome" :? but after sensing Jacques immediate expression of concern I felt a need to support his sentiments...however he chose to express them so no apologies here

 

Never the less, you may find us a fairly amiable bunch...most of the time :D

 

regards,

 

Ford

[Brian]

John,

Welcome, and enjoy yourself here. Don't be put off by the comments, all Ford was trying to say is that we are pretty anal here about the genuine item

Basically for it to be called a Nihonto, it must be made traditionally, in Japan, and (most importantly) from tamahagane. Everything else is a Japanese-style sword (as you mentioned right at the beginning) and there is nothing wrong with that at all.

Modern Japanese swords are called Shinsakuto (newly made swords) and you are correct about the legal restrictions. Not sure about any smiths moving to China through. First I have heard of that.

 

Brian

[Ford Hallam]

all Ford was trying to say is that we are pretty anal here about the genuine item

 

nah...I'm not ...it's everyone else who's anal I'm just a pedant :D

[Ted Tenold]

Hi John,

 

Welcome to the forum. As a guy that basically wears two hats in this stuff I agree with what Ford says, while also understanding and respecting the nature of workstyle someone like yourself is pursuing. You must keep them seperate to understand what each are in the scope of a craft. So let me give you the same advice I give every western smith that draws their inspiration from traditional Japanese swords.

 

You MUST study the old in order to understand the new. There is no getting around this. So many of the western smiths that make Japanese styled stuff just can't seem to get the knife maker out of their blood and this is immediately evident in every work they make. Putting a hamon on a piece of metal is a miniscule part of what the craft involves. Most of what gets lost on Western smiths is that Japanese sword craft is more about making great steel than making a good looking sword. Some of the most admired Japanese swords in history have what could be classified as sedate looking hamons, but the *steel* is the real brilliance and genius of their work.

 

A traditionally made Japanese sword is the visible history of the smith's abilities to;

 

Choose proper raw material

Refine the material into suitable base material

Join it with other base materials for composition

Control in forging consistant composition to shape

Heat treat the composition with control for optimal performance

 

These are facets of skill and judgment that *exponentially* effect the outcome which visably identify periods, regions, schools, and even individual smiths. Yes, Japanese smiths today are making modern blades, but still within the scope of traditional methods following the pathways of the aforementioned regions and schools, so they are not making them in the same context as most western smiths.

 

Based on the above, western smiths have very limited ability to demonstrate equivalent works because the materials they most often use are "off the shelf, ready to use" monosteels, while traditional perameters don't accomodated this. Thus, works in monosteel although durable and resilient, and very often demonstrate skilled heat treating, always lack the spirit of a sword made from steel refined from ore from the start. This includes the forge folded works many smiths use to create hada as an elemental feature of interest, when in traditional aspects hada is a by product of the smith's skill in makingthe steel rather than forging wads of it up for sake of having interesting grain in a blade.

 

Given the nature of monosteel, it also is not amenable to the same polishing applications that of traditional Japanese sword steel. Modern steels have elements that prevent them from being polished by traditional methods because they have been designed to be scratch resistant, high tensile strength, flexibility, etc, with promoting elements like very high carbon, chromium, molybdenum, manganese, etc., that polishing stones simply will not work on. Japanese polishing and sword craft developed colaterally over centuries. Therefore the polishing monosteels has very little crossover and modern methodology must be incorporated to shape and polish modern steels that would be seen as barbaric if applied to traditional Nihonto. Again, very little cross over there.

 

By all means, make what you like to make, but keep firmly founded on what both really are in the scope of things and make no pretenses. One "is" and the other "something kinda like".

 

Again welcome to the forum. I hope you find it an enrichening and enlightening experience.

[nagamaki - Franco]

John,

Not sure about any smiths moving to China through. First I have heard of that.

 

Brian

 

Greetings,

 

hey Brian, the name slips my mind at the moment, but there has been some chatter about a Japanese sword smith, as in one individual, moving to China and producing swords. It is one way to get around the tight quota factor in Japan for earning a living. As far as more than one Japanese sword smith moving to China, there has been no mention that I've heard about at this point.

[Smith Forge]

Well I am sort of taken back by all this. I started with about two years of research on Nihonto just to try to get an understanding of the blades themselves. From start to finish on a blade.

 

I pretty much knew most of what you fellows are talking about.

 

And really all I wanted to do was come in here to learn more about Nihonto. Not to get into a pissing match on what I kow versus what I do not know. I personally do not care about peoples opinions on the subject I am merely looking for facts. And if this hurts anyones feeling then I am sorry in advance but I have a goal and I plan on acheiving the goal. I will one day make a traditional blade from tamahagane using as best to my ability, tradtional methods.

 

So if I ruffled some feathers in here, please forgive but in all respect, get over it I am here to learn.

[Smith Forge]

Oh I forgot to say. Brian thanks for the comments and I am not put off, as i am not trying to pass what i do as the genuine thing. I just want to make sure I am doing it the right way as close as I can get. Nothing more just simplicity. Oh by the way I do enjoy reading the posts in this forum as I have stated I am a learning machine, and I look for as much information as I can.

 

So thanks and no I am not pust off, I will defend myself if need be.

 

And I love this forum

[sencho]

 

Basically for it to be called a Nihonto, it must be made traditionally, in Japan, and (most importantly) from tamahagane. Everything else is a Japanese-style sword (as you mentioned right at the beginning) and there is nothing wrong with that at all.

 

Now being pedantic like Ford...

 

Does this rule apply to the making of tosogu and polishing too then?... any tosogu made outside Japan are Japanese-stlye fittings and any polishing done outside Japan is considered Japanese-stlye polishing....

 

If a Japanese sword smith comes to Europe of America and makes swords in the traditional way, is this then deemed non-nihonto?

 

Happy to see that John in his initial post mentioned quite clearly (as Brian noted) that he made "Japanese Style Swords".

 

At no point has John ever implied that he is making Nihonto and his answers have been very polite, considering some of the board narcissists jumping down his throat because he took the time and bother to actually introduce himself..... I'm not the politest person in the world, but some of these replies, especially the dismissive one-liners are a bit rude! :D

 

Anyway... welcome to the forum John hope you find it an enjoyable learning experience! I look forward to checking out your website.

,

cheers!

[Smith Forge]

Thanks and I do enjoy these forums. I work very hard both in the shop and out of the shop reading and rereading information on Nihonto. I decided long ago to stop making knives as it was not a passion for me. The Katana is a passion for me. I strive to understand the process's, ie the hamon and how one can acheive spectacular results.

 

And yes i did forget to mention I choose to use W-2 and W-1 tool steels as according to some smiths this steel is the closest to tamahagane in most respects, though the steel does have some alloying in it but the the hamon results are wonderful. My site has and shows some of my work.

 

So thanks for the much warmer welcome.

[Link]

Well I am sort of taken back by all this. I started with about two years of research on Nihonto just to try to get an understanding of the blades themselves. From start to finish on a blade.

 

I pretty much knew most of what you fellows are talking about.

 

And really all I wanted to do was come in here to learn more about Nihonto. Not to get into a pissing match on what I kow versus what I do not know. I personally do not care about peoples opinions on the subject I am merely looking for facts. And if this hurts anyones feeling then I am sorry in advance but I have a goal and I plan on acheiving the goal. I will one day make a traditional blade from tamahagane using as best to my ability, tradtional methods.

 

So if I ruffled some feathers in here, please forgive but in all respect, get over it I am here to learn.

 

If your looking for "facts" nihonto is not a great place to start. Hang around awhile and you'll see what i mean :lol:

[Mark Green]

Hi John, welcome.

I hope that the NMB, can help you with your sword making.

Nice stuff, btw

You will be folding steel in no time.

It's all about the steel!!!!

Mark G

[loiner1965]

welcome aboard...i am no where near as knowledgeble as the majority of the members on here but i love the Japanese blade wether its nihonto or showato...but as far as i understand european steel or non-tamahagane was imported into Japan from the mid 1600 and its virtually impossible to tell which steel was used unless the sword was broken...but i opologise to the traditionists if i am corrected

[Ford Hallam]

John,

 

not to continue a pissing contest but I think the intent of some of the responses to your initial posts was misunderstood by yourself. You said you can defend yourself which implies that you felt yourself under attack...in fact many of us here felt this statement of yours;

But to me and several others Western style Japanese Blades are just as beautiful.

was, I think, the issue...and could be seen as an attempt to minimise the very significant differences in terms of absolute artistry in steel. I think it would be very misleading to try and see any sort of equivalence between Japanese art swords and Western style Japanese Blades.

 

Ted's post sums up the matter very well. Perhaps some of us were a little harsh but to be honest if we're trying promoting an understanding of the highest standards of this art form we have to be constantly aware of uninformed opinion that may blur those standards.

 

I understand that you are now not too well disposed to many of the people who have " welcomed" you aboard but to be honest I also think that your riposte

I personally do not care about peoples opinions on the subject I am merely looking for facts.

will perhaps be something of an obstacle to learning anything of substance in this field. As with any art form, there is a wealth of very well informed, and hard won expert opinion that makes up the general body of knowledge and understanding. This is not always absolutely fixed and is under constant review and challenge. Those "opinions" that hold up to scrutiny remain while less well considered ideas are replaced by better explanations. There are certain "facts" to be had, of course, but they are less useful in isolation than when considered within the context of the whole subject....opinions and all :D

 

Good luck,

 

Ford

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

I just want to make sure I am doing it the right way as close as I can get

 

 

I can say no, the only right way to learn Japanese sworsdmithing is to to go in Japan and learn near a Japanese licensed swordsmith. Keith Austin did that and actually Pierre Nadeau too.

[nagamaki - Franco]

but as far as i understand european steel or non-tamahagane was imported into Japan from the mid 1600 and its virtually impossible to tell which steel was used unless the sword was broken...but i opologise to the traditionists if i am corrected

 

hi, sorry, but this is not correct, there are ways to recognize the affects of foreign steel on Shinto period swords, in fact, because certain smiths were known to use namban-tetsu, even proudly signing their swords declaring this fact, some of the more noticeable effects are described right in the kantei descriptions for some of these smiths. Albert Yamanaka certainly talks about this in his Newsletters.

 

Now, back to at John's expense, welcome

[Smith Forge]

Wow again I am not sure how to take some of the posts in here.

 

I think I made a mistake coming here. I guess I am used to getting warm welcomes and people wanting to help me understand an metal working form that is in my opinion creates the most pefect swords on the planet, ever.

 

I am not sure if I have said something wrong in my past posts?

 

I do what I do I do nto misrepresent myself. I make functional Western Style Japanese Blades, that to me are works of art.

 

And no I do not have to go to Japan to Learn Bladesmithing, they learned thru trial and error and that is how I am going to do it, they used what they had which was not much.

 

I feel that I am preserving the spirit of the Japanese Blade.

[Brian]

John,

Take it from the admin of this site...you are quite welcome here and nothing wrong with your posts.

Occasionally we just get a bit fanatical and use someone else's post to remind everyone out there who we are, what we study, and how insane we are about it :lol:

In this case, your timing made you the victim

It's all good. Collectors of antiques are sometimes a bit dubious of modern swords in case they encourage some to "swing" antiques around or see them as the same thing, which they aren't.

Making modern custom knives/swords certainly does not prevent one from having an understanding and love of the true Japanese swords though, so you are most welcome here.

 

Brian

[Smith Forge]

Thanks Brian.

[mdiddy]

Wakimono?

 

Relax, enjoy yourself, and don't take any one person too seriously. Much to learn here, but learning from the group has a lot to do with others helping you identify where your 'opportunites' exist. Iterative learning may take awhile. Took the Japanese themselves hundreds of years...

[nagamaki - Franco]

 

And no I do not have to go to Japan to Learn Bladesmithing, they learned thru trial and error and that is how I am going to do it, they used what they had which was not much.

 

 

Hi John,

 

no, you do not have to go to Japan to learn 'blade smithing' as you have demonstrated, but then, you will not be learning how to make a samurai sword either. Only mimicking the motions. Yes, they learned through trial and error, but their trial and error was passed from one generation to the next as a way of life, in a feudal society, with an outcome that meant life and death. A fact that cannot be understated. Although, today, life and death is not an active factor, the student teacher relationship continues as a way of life, and it is no less a factor today in making nihonto than it was way back when.

 

We see on occassion in affiliating arts such as in polishing, shirasaya making, habaki making, and tosogu making, westerners trying to make a go of it, many taking the path of only being partially trained to one degree or another, and with varying levels of success. But, without question it is the individuals that sacrifice going to Japan and serving a full apprenticeship that return excelling at what they do, and then there is everyone else. And, I'm not being disrespectful here, but what is, is.

 

Now, the real litmus test is submitting one of your mumei swords to a shinsa and having it fool the experts.

[loiner1965]

Now, the real litmus test is submitting one your mumei swords to a shinsa and having it fool the experts....

now that would be a feather in the cap for any non-Japanese knifesmith