Studying this curious tachi feature

[Ron M]

Greetings to you all, I have been studying this tachi I sent to the SF Shinsa last week. They pink’d it for gimei Kagemitsu. I understand this, they noted Mino 1550’s.

 Okay, so I’m posting some pics here for this curious feature: along the monouchi there is a spot about 6” long, about 5” back from Yokote, where the hamon becomes a strict suguha, having been gunome along the rest of the blade. At first, due to polish I thought it was an Urumigokoro, washed out, but took a pic in right light and saw the hamon was meant to be this way.

 I still have no info on the blade other than what I stated and that it’s a gimei Kagemitsu tachi mei.

 Kind regards for thoughts.

Ron

 

[Ray Singer]

When a sword is polished down, a complex hamon may be degraded to something more like a suguha or notare. Often when this happens the hamon may be weaker and more indistinct (shimiru). You see this a lot in Sue-Bizen kazuuchimono where the choji-midare turns into lower-lying suguha which is very unlike the healthier areas of the sword. You may find that the jihada changes in this area as well, being more likely to show shintetsu. 

[Ron M]

40 minutes ago, Ray Singer said:

When a sword is polished down, a complex hamon may be degraded to something more like a suguha or notare. Often when this happens the hamon may be weaker and more indistinct (shimiru). You see this a lot in Sue-Bizen kazuuchimono where the choji-midare turns into lower-lying suguha which is very unlike the healthier areas of the sword. You may find that the jihada changes in this area as well, being more likely to show shintetsu. 

Thank you Ray. I attached an oshigata of a Kanemitsu with exactly the same feature. Is your opinion the same for this blade also? Regards 

[Ray Singer]

It is difficult to evaluate a photo of a computer screen showing an oshigata, but it is possible there that the hamon is diminished due to being polished down. From what I can see, it is a signed Bizen Kanemitsu and with the mei it is possible for such a sword to still pass at the Juyo level with an intact mei of a highly important smith even if the hamon is a bit degraded.

[Jacques D.]

1 hour ago, Ray Singer said:

. Often when this happens the hamon may be weaker and more indistinct (shimiru). You see this a lot in Sue-Bizen  

 

I think you meant shizumu 沈む

 

Quote

When a sword is polished down, a complex hamon may be degraded to something more like a suguha or notare

 

This is the first time I've heard of this

[Jacques D.]

1 hour ago, Ron M said:

Thank you Ray. I attached an oshigata of a Kanemitsu with exactly the same feature. Is your opinion the same for this blade also? Regards 

 

It's just a variation in the hamon. It's very common and it's not due to polishing  

 

NBTHK has proposed that sword in kantei.

[Ray Singer]

  

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

I think you meant shizumu 沈む

 

No Jacques, I meant what I wrote: 染み.

[Ray Singer]

20 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

This is the first time I've heard of this

 

It is very common to see. This is an example below. http://www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2015/15606-2.jpg

[Baba Yaga]

They were more than generous with the attribution. Years back, if one presented a Gimei blade for Shinsa, all you'd get is the blade is Gimei. A good agent would have givin advise not to waste your time. Who was your agent? Remove mei the professional way, polish and reapply.  

[Rivkin]

with such photographs - impossible to tell anything. Zero effort camera phone shots.

I don't want to start the "paper war", but opinions issued by post-Yoshikawa NTHK (non-NPO) have certain... hm... qualities to them.

[Jacques D.]

16 hours ago, Ray Singer said:

 

It is very common to see. This is an example below. http://www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2015/15606-2.jpg

 

Ray, 

 

Can you sahre the link towards the whole description of that sword, i can't find it and i want to verify something as I never believe what I am told without checking it. 

 

I know that a hamon tends to disappear because of too much polishings, but stained? I wonder why and how. On the other hand, to claim that a hamon could change shape because of polishing seems to me a bit daring. It would be necessary that the polishings change the molecular structure of the nioiguchi, but they can't. For me it is rather a variation of the hamon as it was the fashion at that time 

 

 

[Ray Singer]

https://www.aoijapan.net/wakizashi-bishu-osafune-sukesada/

 

You can see this topic discussed below. And you will be able to clearly see there how the hamon has changed from its original shape after the blade has been reduced through polish. 

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/effectofyakiire.html

[Geraint]

An interesting anecdote here, http://www.ksky.ne.jp./~sumie99/episodes.html#grinding  Scroll down to number 4

 

All te best.

[Ray Singer]

That's a perfect example Geraint and, in general, one I had in mind as well. You sometimes see tobiyaki in old Bizen blades which are an echo of what was a kawazuko-choji. 

[Alex A]

Small world.

 

The sword Ray presented i used to own.

 

Seen some polishing, but was a good blade when made.

 

[Alex A]

5 hours ago, Geraint said:

An interesting anecdote here, http://www.ksky.ne.jp./~sumie99/episodes.html#grinding  Scroll down to number 4

 

All te best.

 

 

Some good info on this site.  Good when info comes from folk that really know blades, they make and polish them, whatever. Not like some folk that just regurgitate what is written in books over and over again and try and fit everything into convenient boxes [...}

 

Good site, cheers.

[Jacques D.]

Thanks Ray,

 

I know where I stand. About the anecdote, if this story is true (drawing is false), man have simply erased a part of the hamon which must make the rest of the nioiguchi difficult to see. See the sword in picture, man can clearly see that the nioiguchi has lost all its shine on a part of its length and yet it didn't change the design of the hamon. The polishing is in sashikomi the hamon is not hidden by the hadori.

[Alex A]

Some may find this interesting too, same site.

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp./~sumie99/effectofyakiire.html