Is it just me or is it actually impossible to learn how to identify real nihonto without looking at irl examples??

[Ced]

Sorry I know this question sounds stupid - am a noob in case it wasn't already clear. But I've been told that the best way to develop an eye for the real deal is to look at examples with your own two eyes. Ok, fair nuff, but they don't exist where I live and I find neither pictures of swords nor articles written by experts tell me a whole lot...tbh I'm kinda disappointed that I've spent so long reading up as much as I can about nihonto but I still can't tell the difference between a fake and a real antique. Sometimes I ask an expert why they say a particular blade looks fake and even their answers just fly right over my head. They cite things like a tsuka ito that looks like shoelace (which usually just looks the same as a really old silk ito to me) or a fake patina (well how do you even tell if it's fake??), but no matter how one explains it I guess I just don't have the feel for it. Also I felt really stupid when I saw this video below and thought it showed real nihonto, maybe national treasures or something...but no. They were just chinese fakes, and I was ooh-ing and ahh-ing at them. Ughhhhhhhhh. 

 

Anyway I guess I just wanted to know wtf I'm doing wrong and maybe get some reassurance that I'm not a complete idiot. Thanks. (What an introduction, I know...)

 

[noneed2hate]

Those swords are pretty nice to be honest, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being awestruck by them. I wouldn't go so far as to call them a fake, moreso an enthusiastic interpretation of what a Japanese sword is by foreign artisans/smiths (or perhaps - someone who learned traditional smithing in Japan, relocated to China/was from there originally and wanted to continue the craft.) Reproduction would be a better term than fake in my opinion but of course they are definitely not Nihonto and that should be acknowledged.

It's  all just a matter of time, learning, and holding real (confirmed) examples of Nihonto that will increase you knowledge on what is and isn't a true or good example of a Nihonto. Since they are not commonly in your country as stated, this might be something you'd need to travel for unfortunately to get eyes on real examples. 
 

[Gakusee]

These have some hallmarks of hand-forging and look impressive for Chinese swords (definitely better than the Chinese iaido katana I own). Do you know more about how they were made etc? 

[Jussi Ekholm]

I believe Z-Sey bought the production of Simon Lee and put it under their brand. Not exactly sure how everything went down, as I am not really up to date in production sword market anymore. The owner? was participating a little on a different forum with very hostile and aggressive tone, and couldn't take critique well. I would not personally want to deal with him after seeing that.

 

Still they are one of the better non-Japanese maker of Japanese swords around but for the price their good swords (very high for what they are) go I would rather get a real modern Japanese sword or one made by some of their competitors (outside Japan) that in my opinion have much higher overall quality.

 

I owned one second hand of their presumably tamahagane blades made when they were still Simon Lee. It was ok for a Chinese made sword. But in overall I have had better made Chinese made swords.

 

Do not feel down, it can take a long time of reading and looking to start to notice the differences. Are you more interested in antique items or modern made Japanese swords for martial arts practice?

[DTM72]

I've found a few Chinese blade makers that are forging some pretty decent blades. One thing they all seem to be completely lacking in is their fittings. How can they do so well on the blades, then put some cheap cast fittings with painted gold or gold plating!

[Fuuten]

Regarding the first video, though I agree with some of the statements above, I think the (main), giveaway is that Japanese tempering seems to be more subdued and natural. Depending heavily on the angle of which it is observed. The video focusses heavily on the (overly), hard lines. What would be hadori work? I don't know.

 

As stated videos and photos aren't the best but far from 'inadequate' in terms of being useful learning tools on the  subject. A single 10 second shot in a video or one photo will always give a warped presentation. Even more so when what is being shows is something as unique, complicated and illusive as a mirage.

 

For instance on Aoi, the fact they give you the static sugata, shots under lighting and nearly always of 1, at times 2 sided oshigata - that is quite valuable and a good way to understand what it is we're trying to correctly observe and/or assess.

 

So mostly yes, best would be living in TNM😃 but falling short of that possibility, what is already available to online is IMO pretty good as a start 👍

[Oaken]

On this topic- may I ask how much time it takes approximately for your eyes to start noticing the little subtleties that give away fakes? 

[Shugyosha]

It’s not something I recorded. If you keep to the quality dealers’ sites you’ll only ever see the genuine article and after a while it’s pretty easy to tell the difference; or mostly: 
 

The fakes are getting harder to spot but there’s usually something that says walk away. Never chase swords - there will usually be a better one along in a minute. 

[SteveM]

Z-Sey says they use tamahagane for some of their swords. Accordingly, some of their swords look identical to Japanese swords. I think it will be very difficult to tell the difference between a Japanese sword and those modern repros. But those swords come with a hefty price and a recognizably Chinese mei on them, so you aren't likely to find any these at a Japanese sword shop or Japanese sword dealer's website. 

 

And I fully agree with John above. Avoid pawn shops or ebay, and you won't have to worry about making the distinction between a well-made Chinese repro, or the authentic Japanese antique. 

[SteveM]

Oh, and don't get distracted by the scabbard or the tsuka or the silk threads or any of the other ancillary bits. Its always best to concentrate on the sword itself. The fittings wear out over time. the lacquer becomes cracked, the threads become loose or torn, the metal bits may get rusty, the ray skin wrapping gets grimy and cracks. All of these things wear out and are meant to be replaceable.

 

Of course a great set of fittings that has been well preserved may hint at a very nice sword inside. But in general, concentrate on the sword and not the fittings, unless you are specifically in the market for fittings. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

There are a number of serious collectors in Singapore with top class collections. Why don't you try reaching out to one of them?

[Ced]

9 hours ago, noneed2hate said:

Those swords are pretty nice to be honest, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being awestruck by them. I wouldn't go so far as to call them a fake, moreso an enthusiastic interpretation of what a Japanese sword is by foreign artisans/smiths (or perhaps - someone who learned traditional smithing in Japan, relocated to China/was from there originally and wanted to continue the craft.) Reproduction would be a better term than fake in my opinion but of course they are definitely not Nihonto and that should be acknowledged.

It's  all just a matter of time, learning, and holding real (confirmed) examples of Nihonto that will increase you knowledge on what is and isn't a true or good example of a Nihonto. Since they are not commonly in your country as stated, this might be something you'd need to travel for unfortunately to get eyes on real examples. 
 

Thank you for this. I guess I just get easily discouraged sometimes. And of course it's so like me to not even know the difference between a fake and a repro lol. 
Fortunately, I may have the opportunity to travel in the future so maybe all hope isn't lost yet... any idea which countries have regular nihonto exhibits and stuff like that?? I definitely can't go to Japan since I don't speak a lick of Japanese but I was wondering if there is a sizeable nihonto community in, say, the UK.

[Ced]

8 hours ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

Are you more interested in antique items or modern made Japanese swords for martial arts practice?

I prefer antiques, especially specimens with names of their own or some notable legend or anecdote about them. To give an example, I had a blast reading about the legends behind the so-called "twin swords" Higekiri and Hizamaru, both of which were renamed many times after all the legendary feats they accomplished - and at one point Higekiri was even named Tomokiri for slicing the tip off Hizamaru of its own accord. Obviously it's all fantastical bullshit but it really made the two swords come alive in my eyes when I looked up pictures of them later. So I guess I just like the novelty of such things?? Not to say unnamed/unidentified antiques aren't worthy of my attention of course - any antique that's in good polish is sure to have something beautiful about it, and I definitely hope I'll learn enough one day to be able to appreciate a sword on its own without a fancy name or legend to increase its "cool factor". 

[Ced]

9 hours ago, Gakusee said:

These have some hallmarks of hand-forging and look impressive for Chinese swords (definitely better than the Chinese iaido katana I own). Do you know more about how they were made etc? 

No it's just a random youtube video I found, sorry. (I think the person below you already said something about the brand but I'm not sure, sorry if this is a redundant reply.)

On another note...judging by your profile pic, are you a fan of Touken Ranbu by any chance?? 

[Ced]

2 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

There are a number of serious collectors in Singapore with top class collections. Why don't you try reaching out to one of them?

Who are they? I've never heard of them before. 

[Ken-Hawaii]

Ced, there were an estimated 4 million Japanese swords that were made, so expecting any given blade to have "some notable legend or anecdote about" it isn't very practical. As you study & learn, you should be able to at least identify the period of manufacturer. From the sugata, you can then tell that blades made during Shinto & later periods were never used in large-scale warfare (battles), because the Tokugawa brought unification & peace to the country. There's a much better chance that a Muromachi blade saw battle, although there's no way to be certain.

 

As far as identifying Nihinto from fakes, the first thing I look for is a continuous nioiguchi. I have yet to see a fake with a smooth, continuous edge of the yakiba. Markus Sesko has a good writeup at https://markussesko.com/2015/05/29/kantei-3-hamon-boshi-1/.

[Ced]

3 hours ago, Ken-Hawaii said:

Ced, there were an estimated 4 million Japanese swords that were made, so expecting any given blade to have "some notable legend or anecdote about" it isn't very practical.

Yes I'm aware lol. I just happen to be more fascinated by the ones that do.

 

But thanks for the pointer about the nioiguchi, I didn't know that. If I understand correctly, a "continuous nioiguchi" means a hamon line that has a consistent brightness and doesn't fade in and out suddenly, right?? (Not sure if I got the terminology right either so the pics below show the "hamon line" that I mean. Sorry for the awful red circles, just wanted to be extra clear...)

[Brian]

It is NOT a problem at all to visit Japan without knowing any Japanese. I suspect the majority of us here that went, didn't know any Japanese. Trust me, it's fairly easy to navigate Japan without knowing the language.
In fact, that is the first place you should go.

[PNSSHOGUN]

7 hours ago, Ced said:

Who are they? I've never heard of them before. 

Hi Ced, Mr Chua below would be worth contacting: https://www.kinghouse.sg/introduction

[francois2605]

16 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Hi Ced, Mr Chua below would be worth contacting: https://www.kinghouse.sg/introduction

 

How weird, I had a look to the "Military swords" collection and stumbled upon several eBay pictures from Komonjo and SamuraiMonkey.

 

This (Komonjo) 1937 katana is supposedly by Yasunori... Obviously a fake but why is it there ?!? I'm so confused

[Ced]

1 hour ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Hi Ced, Mr Chua below would be worth contacting: https://www.kinghouse.sg/introduction

Hmm, it says he won't be entertaining "curious persons" like me, at least for now, only experienced collectors and specialists...welp. But his website has some nice pics though, so that's something. Thanks for the rec.

 

1 hour ago, Brian said:

It is NOT a problem at all to visit Japan without knowing any Japanese. I suspect the majority of us here that went, didn't know any Japanese. Trust me, it's fairly easy to navigate Japan without knowing the language.
In fact, that is the first place you should go.

I see, I guess I was being presumptuous lol. Maybe it's time to book that tour to the Bizen Osafune sword museum 

[Xander Chia]

Hi, from what I’ve seen most Chinese reproductions are either mirror polished or have a satin finish. Many of them do not have a geometric yokote as well, as in the line is created with a counter polish. The nakago shape of most brands are also slightly off and the workmanship in general is just lacking. However, some companies like Z-sey have better polishing and a noticeably darker ji. I can see why their blades are harder to tell apart from a nihonto.

In my opinion (the opinion of a NEWBIE), I think the main issue with telling apart repros from the real deal is when comparing to nihontos that are not in proper polish. This means 1 less authentication factor.

 

I heard the owner is a collector of nihonto which may be why their products resemble nihontos more than other brands. Here is a partial scan from their website.

[Winchester]

OP, don't be too hard on yourself. This hobby takes a tremendous amount of study in my opinion. I am also a new collector...been collecting for about a year and a half and try to read on the subject daily. I am just barely scratching the surface with an hour or two a day on average.

 

As someone else mentioned, I have found the resources here and on dealers websites to be extremely valuable. 

 

I haven't started my book collection on this topic yet--which I admit is a flaw in my approach--and that is likely where you and I will get a lot of mileage. Good luck and enjoy each moment.

[Ced]

Of course, thanks all for the advice  

[Xander Chia]

Just to add on to the usage of “tamahagane” by these Chinese forges, many of them smelt their own iron sand to get their own steel. They refer to this steel as “tamahagane”. But in my opinion tamahagane is only made in Japan with their traditional methods. So calling it that would be like calling their swords nihonto.

 

Just a suggestion but perhaps you could try looking at some reproduction swords (as in to study, not telling you to buy one) in person if access to nihonto is really limited. If you can’t spot the real ones at least you can spot the fakes right?

 

But of course you’ll need to have seen a real nihonto to be able to make a distinction. Maybe you could try asking the shops that are selling repros if they know anyone who has nihontos.

[Paz]

I still beleive these are not good or healthy for the market. If anything good for the modern collectors and production blades. 

 

But It's soo annoying to know that Chinese sword makers try so hard to replicate the Japanese nihonto, because they know it makes money. 

 

But this can easily fool the uneducated as these blades caught me out first time aswell. 

 

This is why I buy antique papered swords only. And avoid any modern blade unless its sold in Japan. 

 

Regards